Local Law to Prohibit the Operation of Horse Drawn Cabs

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All right, folks in the balcony, please have a seat. Please find a seat. Good morning. Welcome to today's New York City Council hearing for the Committee on Health. At this time, please silence all cell phones and electronic devices. Moving forward, no one is to approach the dais. Please keep the decorum here as this is a government proceeding. Chair, we are ready to begin.

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Good morning. I am CM Lynn Schulman of the New York City Council's Committee on Health. Today the Committee on Health will hear Introduction 943, sponsored by CM Marte, in relation to prohibiting the operation of horse-drawn cabs. I would like to recognize that we have been joined by Speaker Menin and by Council Members Marte, Gennaro, Epstein, De La Rosa, Ariola and others.

Roman Mahajan and his family were visiting New York City from India when they took a horse carriage ride in Central Park. During the ride, the carriage driver stepped away from the carriage to take a photograph of the family. The horse bolted, causing Roman's mother Priya to fall out of the carriage. Roman then either jumped or fell from the carriage, suffering a severe head injury. He tragically passed away later that day. My heart goes out to the Mahajan family for the unimaginable loss they have endured. Please join me in a moment of silence in memory of Roman.

Thank you. I will now turn it over to Speaker Menin for her opening remarks.

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Thank you, everyone. I am Julie Menin of the New York City Council and I want to welcome all of you to this important hearing. I first of all want to thank my colleague and health committee chair CM Schulman for convening today's hearing and I want to thank my colleague CM Marte, the sponsor of Roman's Law. To the Mahajan family, there are no words for Roman's loss. When I spoke to you this morning and I heard the pain in your voice, there is nothing we can do to bring him back. But what we can do is honor his legacy, which is what we are doing today at this hearing, to make sure that this type of tragedy never ever happens again. I know this is not easy and we are going to hear from you in a few minutes. Our condolences extend to your whole family.

We know that when a young person is taken from us, cut off in their prime of life as Roman was, with a world of potential and going to college ahead of him, it is — and I say this as a mom — it is really deeply heart-wrenching. When that death was avoidable, where he could be alive if only we had acted sooner, it is a call to action for all people of good conscience, for your family, for all the families and for our City.

We are here to ensure that this never happens again. This issue is not new to our City. It is certainly not new to City government. There are many people who are in these chambers who have been working on this issue for many, many years, but it has never come to fruition. The matter of horse carriages, their maintenance, safety and operation has come up under previous mayors and previous City Councils every year for almost four decades. The time to act is now.

This is not a simple issue because this industry is historically and culturally significant. For years horse carriages have been synonymous with iconic, world-class tourism. The rides they provide have given visitors an opportunity to slow down and take in the sights of our City and they have given hundreds of hard-working immigrant New Yorkers the dignity of a good-paying job. These are drivers who care deeply for their horses and who take the safety of their passengers and pedestrians extremely seriously. I do not take these considerations lightly. Any time there is a possibility of ending an industry, the possibility of job losses for small business owners and employees, we obviously need to think carefully about that. I am a former small business owner myself. I understand the challenges and burdens of operating and working for one. So I am committing here today that we are going to chart a path forward to protect the workers and ensure that they have good-paying jobs moving forward, whether it be in the hospitality or tourism or other industry. We know that you are a vital thread of the fabric of this City and we will not exclude you from this conversation.

I am also very committed to ensuring that the horses involved are treated fairly and compassionately, and we will ensure through this Bill that we will guarantee their safety and well-being as well. So that brings us to the pivotal crossroads where we stand today. As public servants, we must respond to the concerns of our constituents and we must recognize that the appetite towards banning horse carriages has grown significantly over the past four decades. New Yorkers have long been concerned about public safety, with scores of accidents and close calls involving horses, passengers and commuters. Maintaining large and naturally skittish animals in our chaotic City is a dangerous combination and sadly, with Roman's death, we have now reached a turning point.

We have also become a City that is overwhelmingly supportive of the humane treatment of animals, and there have been many incidents involving horses collapsing in the hot, congested environment of our streets. Accordingly, nearly 70 percent of New Yorkers are supportive of phasing out this practice. We want to be clear: the Council's focus is on ending this tradition while protecting the workers whose livelihoods depend on it, and we will ensure strong worker protections in this Bill.

We can and we should have this conversation today with respect and with empathy, no matter where we stand on this issue. I hope and I know that this hearing will maintain a tone of somberness, of sensitivity and civility for everyone who has come here today. I am looking forward to hearing from the administration, from the industry, from advocates and most of all from Roman's family. I am also so incredibly sorry, as I said from the beginning, for your loss.

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And for those of you that do not know this aspect: Roman, in an act of heroism, tried to protect his mother. Now a law named in his honor will protect countless others — residents, tourists, humans and horses. While there is nothing we can sadly do to change the tragedy of his death, passing his law is one way to seek justice for him and his family, to keep his blessed memory alive and to carry his brave and compassionate spirit forward.

So I now want to turn it over to CM Schulman again. Thank you.

Thank you, Speaker Menin. The circumstances surrounding Roman's death are deeply disturbing. The driver's conduct was reckless and unacceptable and this young man's death was entirely preventable. This recent tragedy comes on the heels of other high-profile incidents in which carriage horses have broken free, collapsed and died. These include Denice, a carriage horse who died after eating a plant toxic to horses, and Ryder, a horse who collapsed in Hell's Kitchen in 2022 and was later euthanized. These incidents have intensified a debate that has been taking place for years in our City about the welfare of carriage horses, the safety of our residents and visitors, the livelihoods of carriage drivers and the future of the horse carriage industry.

Today we are discussing legislation that, if enacted, would wind down the horse carriage industry. Introduction 943 would prohibit the issuance of new horse carriage operator licenses after June 1, 2028 and would also prohibit the operation of horse-drawn cabs after that date. The Bill would also require the humane disposition of former carriage horses, including prohibiting their sale or transfer for slaughter or for use in another horse-drawn carriage business. Finally, the Bill would require the Department of Consumer and

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Worker Protection and the Mayor's Office of Talent and Workforce Development to develop a job retraining program for former drivers and other workers involved in the industry, with the goal of facilitating the transition to other fields of employment.

This is an industry with a long history in New York City and for generations, carriage drivers have built their livelihoods around this work. But times are changing and we cannot ignore these tragic incidents or the serious public safety concerns they have raised. The landscape of our City has changed dramatically. Central Park and the surrounding streets are filled with bicycles, e-bikes, electric scooters, vehicles and horse-drawn carriages increasingly competing for space. When a horse becomes distressed, collapses or breaks free in this environment, the consequences are devastating not only for the horse but for drivers, passengers and everyone sharing our streets and public spaces. This is fundamentally an issue that greatly affects the public.

These concerns are not based on a single incident. For years, New Yorkers, advocates, elected officials and others have raised questions about animal welfare and public safety within the horse carriage industry. Last month's devastating tragedy has forced us to confront these concerns in a new light and consider whether it is time for a new path forward.

As we consider the future of this industry, we must carefully examine what a responsible transition would require, both for the horses and for the people whose livelihoods depend on this work. We must consider how to protect the horses by placing them in safe and caring homes. We must also recognize the drivers and workers who have devoted years and in some cases generations to this industry, as well as the significant investments they have made in their carriage licenses. We must consider how to provide drivers with meaningful opportunities for new employment. My hope is that we can bring people together around these shared responsibilities.

I know emotions are running high today on all sides of this issue and I want to conclude by reminding everyone that although there may be strong opinions on this legislation and on the future of this industry, we must maintain a civil and respectful proceeding. The purpose of this hearing is to ensure that all voices and all perspectives can be heard today. We must maintain decorum throughout the proceedings.

I would also like to thank the representatives from the administration for being here and I want to thank the committee staff. I want to make mention that the committee staff has worked an enormous amount of hours and an enormous number of days and worked really hard on this, and so I really want to thank them from the bottom of my heart: Chris, Pepe, Newman, Elizabeth, for their hard work in preparing for this hearing, as well as my team, Jonathan Boucher, Kevin McAleer and Sami. Before I hand it over to CM Marte for a brief statement on his legislation, I want to let people know that you can request translation in the following languages: Spanish, Hindi, Arabic, Turkish and Russian. So if anybody needs anything, please let the sergeant know. Now I will turn it over to CM Marte for a brief statement on his legislation.

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Good morning, everyone. I would like to give a huge thank you to Speaker Menin and CM Schulman for holding today's historic hearing and to the thousands of advocates and everyday New Yorkers who for years have been demanding we take action on horse carriages in Central Park. For decades we have seen carriage horses live in cramped stables. We have seen them march through midtown traffic breathing in exhaust. We have seen them pull thousands of pounds in the heat and in the cold. We have seen them get scared, run off and die in the streets. Every time an incident occurs, we are given an excuse. We are told this is just an isolated incident and the industry is completely safe. But the reality is that in the past 34 years there have been 128 documented horse carriage accidents. Thirty horses have died. Dozens of horses and people have been injured and hospitalized. Vehicles have been damaged and destroyed and most recently we lost the life of a young tourist from India.

As legislators, now is the time for serious accountability. While the City Council has dragged its feet through endless debates, we now have the loss of a boy on our hands. These are not unrelated accidents but a pattern of failure that proves this industry does not work in modern-day New York City. During this hearing, we are going to hear a lot more excuses. We will be told that the industry is safe yet somehow also needs safety reforms. That if the drivers are just trained better, this will never happen again. That if we just add additional infrastructure to Central Park, such as hitching posts, that will solve the problem. We will be told that the issue is just the lack of government oversight and we will be threatened that if we pass this Bill all the horses will be sent to the slaughterhouse.

However, these excuses do not hold up. The Department of Health tried to provide oversight over the carriage industry. But when the agency ordered independent veterinarians to inspect the stables and the horses, the workers refused to allow them to test their horses. That veterinarian entered the area and found horses stuck in stables too small, covered in scars and exhibiting signs of many medical issues that could disqualify them from working. It was not the City who did not enforce. It was the industry that refused to comply.

After 128 horse carriage accidents, it was only when someone was killed that additional training was provided to the drivers. Legislation has never been required to mandate better training. Either the owners have ignored training their drivers or the training has not been working. For days after Roman's death, we were promised that drivers were going to be trained to never leave their horses unattended. Drivers were documented doing exactly that.

No amount of driver training would change the nature of horses. They can and will get scared and run off. Even hitching posts, which we are told are the magic bullet to stop horse accidents, are not a real solution. A 1,500-pound horse will still get scared while tied to a hitching post. Their halters can snap under extreme pressure and the horses can run off. They can even pull the post onto the ground as the horse pulls back violently. They can fall with the carriage and capsize. And even if the harness does not snap, the extreme pressure on the top of the head can cause serious and lasting injuries. It can even break their neck.

Lastly, we must put to rest the idea that banning horse carriages will lead to the death of horses. We are going to hear today from a broad coalition of sanctuaries and farms willing to pay owners full prices for their horses. Sending the horses to the slaughterhouse is completely unnecessary. If we all work together, we can pass this Bill, compensate the owners and let the horses live their lives on open pastures. The preventable death of Roman has proven that we cannot reform our way out of this. But there is a way forward and that is Roman's Law, Int 0943-2026. With this Bill, we can end this industry, find safe homes for the horses and transition workers to other jobs. My office has already been in discussion with developers of proposals for workforce development programs for workers. Roman's Law is how we can truly honor Roman so we can offer his family more than just words but action. We can protect the horses, take care of the workers and make sure that this tragedy never happens again, ever. I look forward to today's discussion and urge my colleagues to sponsor this legislation so we can finally put an end to this form of legalized animal cruelty.

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Thank you. Thank you, CM Marte.

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I would now like to recognize that we have been joined by CM Narcisse and CM Felder. Did I miss anybody? Okay. Before we hear testimony from the administration, we will hear directly from Roman's family, who have joined us here in chambers and online to provide testimony. First we will hear from Priya Mahajan and Deepak Mahajan. Do we have them here?

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Members of the Council, we are Roman's mother and father. We brought our son to New York from India to celebrate his finishing school. He had just found out that he had been admitted to one of the most prestigious universities in India. Two days later, we took a carriage ride in Central Park. Near the end of the ride...

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The driver stepped away from the carriage to take a family photo. The horse set off out of control. I cannot properly describe the real fear inside that carriage.

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It was shaking, it was speeding, there was no one holding the reins and we could do nothing but hold on to each other and scream. My son fell trying to help his mother and he hit his head on the ground and he did not move. He never moved again.

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I called his name but he did not move. He was 18, six foot two, obedient, smart — the boy who made everyone better, who was always sharing his ideas with me. He wanted to build something of his own. He died that day. He took his last breath in his mother's arms, with his 11-year-old brother watching. This was the last trip of his life. No parent plans for or expects this to happen to their child. But it happened.

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Now we will live inside that day over and over again. We are shattered. Our family is shattered. The pain does not go away. Every morning you wake up and think of nothing but the loss. We came to New York as a family. We are being asked to cope with life without him. I will miss him so much. We still have not opened the luggage from that trip.

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Every time we have to go through his room, his books, his belongings and his dreams are exactly where you left them. His friends are shattered. They had plans with him for college, for life, for the future. They are still struggling to believe that he is gone. Our younger son, witnessing what our son is unable to cope with, that trauma and heartbreak of witnessing that day, he watched his friend die. He lost not only his sibling, but his companion, his guide and his best friend. No child should ever have to carry memories like this for the rest of their life.

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And for us, every night is a nightmare. Because of this, it is really tearing us apart — the helplessness and the moment that plays back like a recording. I want you to imagine what it is like watching your son die right in front of you. I would not wish one moment of any of this on any family. This boy, from the moment he was wearing that blue jacket, sometimes I think back to those final moments. It feels as though he was wrapped in the colors of the American flag.

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A young life who came here, a clear-cut case of negligence. This was no unpredictable accident. There were safety violations, a systemic failure to protect the people who trusted this city. Everyone has admitted the driver should never have left that carriage, and still the ride went back on the street. While we were planning our son's funeral, it was treated as a temporary inconvenience. But we will not let that be the end. We are asking you, please act. Pass this law. It was said before this committee last year, and if it had passed, that carriage would have stopped on June 17.

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He died on June 17. If the City Council had passed a law banning horse carriages last year, our son would be alive today. That could have prevented another tragedy. It is a full and complete bill — Int 0943-2026 — and it must become law. Let us ensure that his death is not in vain. Thank you.

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Thank you. We are so, so sorry for your loss. Next, we have Gravina, Hae Jun and Anaya. My God.

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Okay. Members of the committee, my name is Carl Mahajan. Romance was my nephew. I am speaking in front of you, but I will not be whole. A part of me died with him that day and it has not come back.

Let me tell you who he was, because he was not a headline. He was brilliant. He did not have small dreams — he wanted to build something big. He talked about it constantly with his father, with me, with anyone who would listen. His smile puts you at ease. He had a heart that could sense when someone needed help, whether he knew them or not. That is not a story we made up after the fact. That is who he was, and that is exactly how he died — reaching for his mother when the horse bolted. In the most terrifying moment of his life, with no one in control and everything out of control, my 18-year-old nephew acted.

Romance collected sneakers. He loved that. It wrecks me that I will never be able to buy him another pair. I should be watching him grow. Instead, I catch myself staring at the door waiting for him to walk through it. He never will.

We did not ask to become advocates. A broken system forced us into it. Romance's law is written in our tears, but it is not just our tears. There are 300 years of individuals and their families who were injured — in the 1983 West Side mass casualties incident, and the 1985 incident involving the horse named Chester, which left women with injuries and one woman blind due to severe head trauma. The list of tragedies and injuries caused by horse-drawn carriages goes on and on for decades, ending with our Romance and his mother.

If this law had already existed, my nephew would be alive today, living everything he dreamed about. You have the power to stop this from happening to another family. I am asking you — look at us, remember his face, and pass this law so his soul can finally rest. In closing, we request a permanent memorial at the exact site of the tragedy. Romance's unmatched bravery defined the best of humanity on New York soil. The ground where he took his final breath must stand forever as a monument to their love, and the City must never forget the boy who gave everything to protect his mother. Thank you.

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Thank you very much. Next, we will hear from... I am sorry, they have one more. Okay, I am sorry, I did not realize that. Go ahead. I am sorry.

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My name is Snow Keith Margaret.

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And I am Romance's aunt.

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I came here with a broken heart because our beautiful boy is gone. And where he used to be, there is a silence I cannot describe. Before this, Romance was our sunshine. I know every family says that, but I need you to understand — he was charming, loving, full of life. Eighteen years old, celebrating his graduation, with his entire future ahead of him. He trusted the City. We got into that carriage believing that if you are allowed to ride on its streets, it must be safe. That trust is what makes this unbearable. A happy family trip turned into sheer terror when the horse became wild and uncontrollable. And in those last moments, my nephew was so brave — braver than any child should ever have to be. Something like that never should have been allowed to happen to him.

Every day since, the quiet in our home is suffocating. Some mornings the grief is so heavy it is hard to take a breath. I look at the empty space where Romance should be, and the weight of it sits on my chest and does not move. Please do not let him become a case number on a piece of paper. If you have children, or nieces, or a nephew, think of them tonight. Imagine that fear for one second and then follow your heart. The horse-drawn carriage industry must come to an end. That is why Romance's death...

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...was preventable, and why only passing Romance's law immediately will help us spare the next family from this nightmare. Thank you.

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Thank you very much. Now I will call up Anugras and Sylvia Dubois. You are here, right? Come up to the table.

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Go ahead.

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Good morning, members of the committee, and thank you for letting us speak. My name is Sylvia Tukral. I am here along with my husband Onrawl. We are here for our nephew Romance Mahajan, who lost his life in Central Park on June 17, 2026. He arrived in New York just two days prior, on June 15. He was so excited to start college. He had been accepted to one of the top universities in India, and at 18, his entire life was still ahead of him. He was kind and sincere. He loved being around little children, and he carried himself with an honesty and loyalty to his family that you do not often see in someone that young.

I need to tell you about one phone call on June 17. That afternoon, I called my brother Deepak Mahajan, expecting to hear that they were having a wonderful day. Instead, I heard him crying, begging me, begging the officers at the scene, telling them, "Save my son." I heard my sister-in-law, Romance's little brother Manic Mahajan, crying, horrified. Those screams, those cries, those sounds of agony — those sounds have not left me. They haunt me every single time they come back to me, and they will for the rest of my life.

A boy who came here to celebrate the start of his new future in the City he was so excited to see never went home. The unattended horse spooked and bolted, and when it did, Romance tried to save his mother, and it cost him his life. Romance is not a tragedy on a page. He was a son, a grandson, a brother, a nephew, a young man with a future that belonged to him.

He was part of a long history of catastrophic injuries — the tourist who was dragged by two spooked horses in 1997, just like the two passengers who were injured by the runaway horse Nicky in 1998 at 61st Street and First Avenue, the carriage incidents of 2003, years of injured victims, years of life-changing events, years of families being broken. The difference here is that Romance is the first death from decades and decades of horse-drawn carriage injuries and catastrophes. Now, will you finally act and put a stop to this industry? I am standing here in support of Romance's law so that his death will not go unremembered.

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His passing will not be forgotten. It must force society to change so that no other family ever has to carry what we carry now. Please remember his name.

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Remember Romance Mahajan. Remember the life he left behind. I am sorry. Please make sure no one else has to die from this industry. I am sorry. His mother is shattered. She does not want to speak because she is devastated. Losing an 18-year-old son has hit everyone hard. The house is not the same. There is no sound of him. His room is dark. Nobody can enter it.

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I just want to thank you for coming here today. We know how painful this is for you. You have our deepest condolences, and I just want to thank you for your courage in being able to share what the family is going through. We know this is very, very difficult for you, and we really appreciate your whole family coming here and testifying before us today. I want to reiterate what the Speaker said — thank you for your courage and thank you for sharing with us today. I really appreciate that. Did you have some words, or...?

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Thank you, everyone. I just want to say that when this whole incident happened, the entire family was helpless. When the horse bolted, they were helpless. His mom told us that he literally took his last breath in front of her. She said he was breathing in front of her, but he could not open his eyes, and they were helpless. At least now, with all of your effort and the efforts of everybody in this room, including the Speaker and all of you, maybe you can pass this law to help them. Their house literally went from having kids everywhere, having the energy of a Disneyland, to becoming the energy of a graveyard. That is the energy they are living with...

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...because that is what they are going through every single day.

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Thank you again. Thank you very much.

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Good morning. I want to thank the committee here today, Speaker Menin, CM Marte and CM Schulman. My name is Saga. I am a partner at Leigh Act Slow. I represent the estate and the family of Romance Mahajan. I just want to first of all point out what everyone else here has already said, but to highlight the fact that this incident was entirely avoidable. Romance's death will not be in vain. He came to this City as a tourist and he died as a son of this City, and we will hold the City accountable for the decades of failures in enforcing and preventing this from taking place. No hitching posts, no tethering points, no safety devices whatsoever to secure a 2,000-pound animal from consistently getting spooked and bolting. This incident could have been prevented. It should have never happened. And if this law had been passed a year ago, on June 1, 2026, there would be no horses in this City. Romance unfortunately passed away on June 17. His death will not be in vain. This is not about the workers and the union members — they too have called for better safety. The Conservancy, for decades, has called for better safety, and we will hold the City accountable.

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Thank you. All right, thank you very much to all of you. Now, are there any other family members here before I move on? Okay. I also want to recognize that we have been joined by CM Morano. Now the administration will present their testimony. Thank you. Will the administration please come up. I will turn it over to the committee counsel to administer the oath. Thank you.

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Good morning, Madam Speaker, Chair Schulman, members of the Committee on Health and other Council members. I am Karen Shift, Deputy Commissioner for Environmental Health at the New York City Health Department, on behalf of Commissioner Martin. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Also present is the Deputy Commissioner of External Affairs at the New York City Department of Consumer and Worker Protection. Before discussing the legislation, I want to express my deep condolences, and those of the Health Commissioner and all of us at the Health Department, to the family of Romance Mahajan. His death associated with a horse carriage ride was a terrible tragedy. It is unimaginable what his family is going through.

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The oversight of the carriage horse industry requires citywide coordination, and the Health Department works closely with many other agencies also involved, including NYPD, DOT and New York City Parks. We also work closely with the Mayor's Office of Animal Welfare. The Health Department is charged with issuing initial and renewal licenses for the carriage horses under the Administrative Code. Our process includes reviewing the horse's health certificates to check that the horses are examined by their veterinarian every four to eight months, as well as reviewing owner records showing that the horses have had at least five weeks a year of vacation or furlough at a horse stable that allows daily access to a paddock or pasture. We make periodic observations of the horses' movement and overall body...

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...condition at the three Central Park hack stands where carriages must pick up and discharge passengers, and we monitor whether to issue related suspensions. We also conduct the training course for aspiring carriage horse drivers, which is a prerequisite to obtain a horse carriage driver's license.

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Mayor Mamdani has been clear that New York City should join the other cities that no longer allow operation of a horse carriage industry, and the administration supports the intent of Int 0943-2026 to promote a good outcome for the horses. The Bill would require the Health Department to provide horse owners with information about individuals and organizations that can receive or acquire horses for humane purposes, and require owners to certify that they are not transferring or selling their horse for an inhumane purpose. The Bill provides a two-year phaseout period, providing time for owners and drivers to make this transition, and requires a workforce development program. The administration is, however, critical of the insufficiency of the worker protections in the Bill, and we look forward to working with the Council to address those concerns as we move forward on this important issue for New Yorkers. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Deputy Commissioner Ortiz and I can now take your questions.

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Did Commissioner Ortiz have a separate statement? No. CM Gennaro.

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Primarily your agency also really looks after the drivers. By the way, how much time do I have? Okay. So, in the last 167 years of the industry, or as far back as you have records, has there ever been a situation where a horse carriage driver's license has been suspended or revoked? The answer is no, but I can...

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I actually do not know that for certain. In recent years there have not been suspensions or revocations, but I believe in prior administrations there were. I can pull the records. I am sorry.

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We will give you extra time for this. I was Commissioner and we actually did do a suspension due to conduct when I was Commissioner, so it has happened. I think those had to do with financial matters, not safety, but in any event — I was offered the opportunity by the Speaker to make a statement at the outset of the hearing, but I was told by staff that it was not possible to make a statement. And so now, when it comes to medallions — have medallions been revoked or suspended?

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To your knowledge? To my knowledge, in recent years they have not, sir.

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Thank you. In terms of the Health Department and the mounted unit that is out there — the levels of violations for safety — I will also note that after incidents have happened, I do not think there have been violations issued to drivers, meaning that the people in charge of this kind of oversight thought it was explainable or something. So I am trying to find out how you come here today to support the elimination of the industry just because the Mayor thinks so. What I am looking for here are actual facts, because you are the oversight body, and there was nothing in your testimony that cited data, facts, violations, episodes or anything of that nature. If you had actual data, facts, violations or episodes, you would have made mention of them in your testimony. You did not. Can you explain that?

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Thank you for the question, Council member. I would like to take a step back...

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I want to recognize the question.

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I would like to recognize that this issue around horse-drawn carriages in Central Park has been an ongoing discourse for many administrations. It does not matter whether it is a discourse — we are supposed to be doing things based on facts. If you had information that supports the elimination of the industry, you would have put it in your statement.

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You did not. The bell rang. I yield.

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I would like to respond. I am the one who gets to ask the questions. You do not get to say anything now.

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Thank you, Councilmember. I also want to comment that I did not ask to comment on the facts, and I go to my colleagues. The testimony that the administration supports winding down this industry — we recognize that is your...

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Your full statement. That is all you have, and it is based on fact and what you have done to enforce, and recommendations that you might have made to make it safe. I did not hear any of that in the testimony, and there is no dancing that is going to get you out of that.

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I think we have done significant efforts in the City over the many years. We have tested regulations around this industry, whether that is limitations around where these carriages can operate, how many carriages there are, how many horses are licensed. We have all engaged in robust efforts to try and bring additional actionable summonses. We have worked with industry across multiple administrations to try to address what is happening. That is the reality. I do not...

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He is not responsive. He is just... she is just... so I will just say, I am not looking for a word salad here. I am looking for answers, which I did not get.

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CM, your time is up and you answered the question. Yes.

(00:45:48)

Yes. You are thinking, okay.

(00:45:51)

Thank you, Councilmember. I am sorry — Speaker Menin. Okay. Thank you so much. I have a number of questions. Thank you for your testimony today.

(00:46:02)

Questions for you: during the fatal incident involving the horse and carriage, the driver reportedly left the horse and carriage unattended to take a photograph of family members, after which the horse became startled and bolted. What is the agencies' — both agencies' — position on this incident?

(00:46:28)

The Administrative Code is very clear that drivers must not leave the horse unattended. The Health Department, as I noted in my testimony, provides the training course for aspiring carriage drivers, and we do include that key safety provision in that training. The enforcement of that action is under review at the Health Department right now.

(00:46:58)

I would also add, Speaker, to echo — I believe testimony has been submitted by the Mayor's Office of Animal Welfare — that I think the incident overall goes back to the inherent challenges that exist when horses are working in these busy urban environments, and ultimately why I think the administration is supportive of a long-term solution to the horse-drawn carriage industry, keeping in mind, of course, outcomes and pathways that are sustainable for the workers in this industry as well, which is of critical importance for the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection as well.

(00:47:30)

Thank you. You mentioned in your testimony — the Health Department testimony — about worker protections in the Bill, which is something I am focused on as well. What are the specific worker protections, and I guess, why is that testimony coming not from...

(00:47:48)

Thank you, Speaker. I think for operational purposes, we just have one testimony to represent the administration's position. But I am here to comment on the worker touch point as well. Certainly, I think to provide some concrete feedback — workforce development is not necessarily something that the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection engages in now. There are many other agencies that do that work. That said, we would like to be actively involved in this conversation as well as it relates to outcomes for the workers and ensuring that we have sustainable pathways forward for them.

(00:48:15)

Is there specific language...

(00:48:16)

...that the administration is recommending? We do not have language available at this time, but I think as we move through the legislative process we will be providing language.

(00:48:25)

Okay. How many workers would be affected by the ban? We obviously know how many licenses there are — we have been looking at the open data portal — but I want to get this information on the record, which is why I am asking these questions. So how many workers would be affected by a ban, including carriage drivers, stable workers and other staff? I apologize, Speaker. I do not know if I have the stable worker numbers. I do know that there are 208 licensed horse-drawn carriage drivers. My understanding from public reporting is that approximately 107 of them are engaging in the work day in, day out. Okay. And what is the administration's view in terms of the proper phase-out timeline that both agencies would recommend? Do you agree with the language in the Bill currently, or do you believe differently?

(00:49:17)

I think — just to confer with my colleague — I do not think we have concerns necessarily with the phase-out timeline itself. I think a setting such as this, to hear from the stakeholders — whether that is industry and workers and other advocates — is an important step in the legislative process to know if the timeline is appropriate.

(00:49:35)

Okay. And what are the administration's plans to support the workers?

(00:49:44)

Well, I think we are having ongoing conversations with our partners in labor about what outcomes we can support and what we can do to support outcomes for workers. I know — I have heard your public comments recently as well, Speaker, about securing employment for workers. I think for us, all options are on the table. We want to make sure that this works. Okay.

(00:50:08)

Okay. I am going to turn it back over to CM Schulman. Thank you. Thank you very much. First, I want to say that we have been joined by CM Maloney and CM Brewer. So, how many carriage horses are currently licensed and operating in New York City? Please provide the number of horses, the number of stables, the number of carriage licenses and drivers. I guess that is divided between the two of you.

(00:50:33)

Yes. As of the end of last year, we had just under 160 horses licensed, and there are three stables that serve the industry.

(00:50:44)

The former Mayor issued Executive Order 56 directing agencies to prepare for the cessation of horse-drawn carriages in New York City. What inspections or other work was done, and what continued after the order was rescinded?

(00:51:02)

We conduct routine inspections of the stables — routine inspections of horses both at the stables. These are observations of the horses as well as inspections of paperwork, and we also make periodic observations at the hack stands.

(00:51:22)

I would also add that the Department of Transportation conducts inspections three times a year on each of the carriages. And to touch upon the other part of your question, I know that the previous administration and the de Blasio administration — I would say my entire career in City government — we have been working on this issue as well.

(00:51:41)

Okay. Thank you. Over the past five years, how many horses have been removed from service due to medical...

(00:51:53)

...concerns? It is a very routine process for us to take in referrals from NYPD, which is often at the hack stands, and we will — depending on our veterinarian's assessment — require the owner to have the horse assessed. During that time the horse is not in service, and we require the owner to provide the veterinarian's determination before the horse can be returned to work. I do not...

(00:52:34)

...have the count. We can continue to work on that to try to provide it. We want the count. So we want you to get that to us, and I want to know what are the most common concerns that lead to removal.

(00:52:51)

I can say some of the common concerns would be that the horse is lame, for example, and we might see a video that either shows that it is lame or that it needs further assessment to be able to determine that. That would be a common consideration. Okay.

(00:53:10)

DOHMH is responsible for enforcing requirements governing stable conditions, including adequate heating and ventilation, sufficient food and drinking water and minimum stall dimensions. Over the past five years, how many violations has the department issued for failure to comply with stable requirements? Please provide a breakdown by violation type. If you do not have it here, then you need to send it to us. But answer whatever you can answer right now.

(00:53:37)

We do make routine inspections of the stables two to three times a year. I do not have the violation numbers, so we will get back to you. Okay.

(00:53:49)

How many staff does the department currently employ to inspect and oversee horse carriage...

(00:53:56)

...stables? We have six health inspectors who work in our Veterinary Public Health Program. They do a variety of work, including the inspections of the horse carriages, and we have equine veterinarians we work with on a contract basis.

(00:54:12)

How many stables have repeatedly failed inspections or required corrective action...

(00:54:18)

...plans? The stables have not had plans. Local Law 2 or 3 of 2019 prohibits horse carriages from working when the temperature is 90 degrees or above, or when the temperature is 80 degrees and the equine heat index reaches 150 or above. Since the law took effect, how many written warnings and violations has the department issued for noncompliance?

(00:54:47)

What I can tell you is the suspensions in the last three years. There have been 100 and... weather-related suspensions in the last three years. I would like to confer with NYPD on violations. They are typically at the hack stands at the time of the suspension, and so I would like to check with them to get you a full count. We have not issued violations for violating the suspension, but it is typically NYPD who is actually on site at the hack stand, so let me confer with them to be able to provide that.

(00:55:22)

Okay. How does the department monitor compliance when temperatures approach the statutory thresholds? I am sorry, I missed the beginning of your question. How does the department monitor compliance when temperatures approach the statutory thresholds?

(00:55:39)

So when we know that it is a day where we are potentially going to reach one of those thresholds — today, the horses have been suspended.

(00:55:48)

Today. Yes. Okay. We are...

(00:55:48)

...we are monitoring the weather. The Administrative Code sets out very specific protocols for how to measure that temperature, including the type of equipment that the Health Department and NYPD are required to use. So we do have the equipment that the Council has required, and we take those measurements as we understand the temperature threshold to be approaching, and that allows us to suspend the activity when that threshold is...

(00:56:29)

...met. How often are readings taken? I will have to get back...

(00:56:34)

...to you about the number of times the readings are taken.

(00:56:38)

Global temperatures are rising and New York City is increasingly experiencing extreme heat and high humidity. How many days in 2025 and 2026 were carriage horses prohibited from working because the temperature reached 90 degrees or the equine heat index reached the...

(00:56:55)

...threshold? What I have is the total weather-related suspensions. There is also a cold weather threshold, and we will also suspend for other extreme weather conditions — for example, if the paths are icy. So I have the total numbers: in 2025 it was 28, and in 2026 from January to June it was 19.

(00:57:18)

Okay. The department administers the horse-drawn carriage operator course, which includes testing for safe driving practices. Horses can become startled by bicycles, scooters, vehicles and other unexpected activity. What training do drivers receive on responding to a horse that becomes frightened or bolts? Is that response tested as part...

(00:57:35)

...of the driver training? The course that we administer as a prerequisite for the license includes information about horse behavior and maintaining control of the horse, and as I noted, it also includes training that it is prohibited under the Administrative Code to leave a horse un...

(00:58:04)

...attended. There is a written component, a classroom component to the exam, and the aspiring driver has to pass a test at the end of the classroom component. Then there is a practical component with a horse and our equine veterinarian, where that is the opportunity for the aspiring driver to demonstrate that they are able to manage the horse properly.

(00:58:33)

Okay. Do you believe there are any inherent risks that cannot be addressed through...

(00:58:48)

I will say that the course is designed to be comprehensive, to teach the aspiring driver about illness and other issues and to cover the health and safety requirements of the multiple City agencies.

(00:59:19)

I would add to that, Chair, that going to the testimony that was submitted by the Mayor's Office of Animal Welfare, there seem to be inherent challenges with operating horse-drawn carriages in New York City in busy urban environments, in situations where we have exacerbated weather situations now because of climate change. I think these do pose inherent challenges to the industry, and that is a part of this conversation.

(00:59:45)

Just — thank you. During the fatal incident, the driver stepped away from the carriage. We understand that this goes against safety protocols and violates rules which require the driver to hold the reins at all times. Are these safety protocols identified in the horse carriage operator course?

(01:00:04)

They are. It is also very clear in the Administrative Code that drivers are prohibited from leaving the horse unattended. It is covered in our course.

(01:00:19)

How is the curriculum for the course developed, and what experts are consulted in its development?

(01:00:29)

The course was developed by our agency in consultation with many others — for example, the ASPCA, NYPD and our agency colleagues — because it covers and addresses the regulations that live in many other agencies' codes.

(01:00:49)

Is the department considering any updates to its protocols to prevent future incidents?

(01:01:02)

The laws, the regulations and the protocols are all designed to prohibit such incidents. We conduct outreach and education. We have delivered notices to the stables for posting to remind drivers that they cannot leave the horse unattended. I would...

(01:01:27)

...I would add to that as well. I think the administration is certainly open to changes. We can make marginal changes around the edges to try and reform this industry in the short term, but the long-term question, I think, is what is paramount right now — winding down the industry.

(01:01:41)

Ultimately, I think that if there is business activity that is causing harm, we cannot necessarily think first of how do we facilitate the activity continuing. I think our first question — the hard question the government has to ask itself — is how do we stop the harm. I think that is part of the guiding principles, of course, that worker outcomes are protected and that animal outcomes are protected as well. Thank you. The horse-drawn carriage operator course is offered four times a year. In 2025, how many people enrolled in the course?

(01:02:25)

I do want to note that we have not been able to meet that four-times-a-year offering of late. We have equine veterinarians on contract.

(01:02:35)

We have not been able to hire a staff person to fulfill that role, so we are a little constrained in being able to offer it four times a year.

(01:02:49)

In 2025, 18 people took the course. So how many times did you offer it? Since you do not have it — it has varied, so let me get you the last couple of years, but it has varied because of the staffing constraints.

(01:03:03)

Is that being addressed? I mean, I know we have this Bill, but is that being addressed?

(01:03:08)

We have been actively recruiting for an equine vet. Just to reiterate, we do have equine veterinarians — they are just on a contract — and so that can hamper the number of times we can offer the course. Okay.

(01:03:28)

Drivers speak multiple languages, including Spanish, Turkish and others. What language is the course offered in, and are there gaps in language...

(01:03:36)

...access? There are gaps in language access. It is an English-language course. Is there a fee to register for the course? What about for course materials or examinations? It is a $25 course.

(01:03:54)

And that includes course materials and everything else? I think that is the total course cost. But if there is something additional, I will correct that, but I believe it is a total of $25.

(01:04:04)

Please describe the practical exam component of the course. What does this exam consist of and who conducts it?

(01:04:13)

The practical exam is conducted by an equine veterinarian with the horse, and the driver needs to demonstrate, for example, the proper fitting of the bridle and harness, proper hitching and unhitching and control of the horse.

(01:04:34)

The committee has heard from many animal sanctuaries across the country that have stated they are willing to accept the horses in the event that the industry is phased out. Is the department equipped to coordinate with City agencies, sanctuaries and animal welfare organizations to transition horses to safe and caring homes and to ensure that none are sold or disposed of in a manner that leads to slaughter?

(01:04:57)

So the Bill would require the Health Department to collect information about sanctuaries and similar organizations and to provide that information to the owners, and then to collect certifications from the owners about the disposition of their horse. We are reviewing the Bill, so we do not have exactly the plan for how we would implement that, but we would be prepared to implement it...

(01:05:22)

...should the Bill pass. That is what I am asking — if you are prepared, and do you need other resources to facilitate that?

(01:05:30)

We have not fully evaluated the requirements of the Bill. We are still reviewing.

(01:05:36)

How many staff positions does the department dedicate to carriage horses? So we have six...

(01:05:44)

...inspectors who work on this industry but also other animal-related industries, and then we have program leads, administrative staff and equine veterinarians on contract. If the Council enacts Int 0943-2026, it does have a planned number of different programs...

(01:06:10)

...and so there is no concern about staffing — there will be other work for them to do.

(01:06:17)

Please describe how you enforce local laws governing the carriage horse industry. Is there a multi-agency team that regularly coordinates on enforcement, trainings and emergency response?

(01:06:34)

We do communicate regularly with the many agencies that have a role in the oversight of the industry.

(01:06:40)

I would add to that. I know I have personally participated in a City task force that is essentially focused on Central Park and issues as they relate particularly to horse-drawn carriages, and that work also happens in coordination with local stakeholders as well.

(01:06:55)

Are any other agencies such as Parks and NYPD involved in this process? Yes, they are. They both are. The rental horse advisory board is required to advise the Commission on regulations affecting the health, safety and welfare of carriage horses and the public. Has the advisory board met in recent years, and if so, what recommendations or actions has it taken to improve passenger safety?

(01:07:20)

So the advisory board is established in the local law. It has been constituted. There is not a formal role for the Health Department beyond once the Health Commissioner has designated

(01:07:35)

the members. So we are aware of meetings, but we do not have a role in those meetings, so I cannot speak to their meeting schedule. They have not delivered

(01:07:47)

any recommendations to the Health Commissioner in many, many years.

(01:07:54)

The rental horse advisory board is required to advise the Commissioner on regulations affecting the health, safety and welfare of carriage horses and the public. Does the agency envision any potential challenges should Int 0943-2026 be

(01:08:16)

enacted? We are continuing to review the Bill. But as you have heard from both Deputy Commissioner Ortiz and myself, the administration supports the Bill with some interest in continuing to discuss some of the provisions with the Council. Okay, I am going to ask some questions for you, Carlos.

(01:08:34)

How many active carriage owner licenses currently exist? Research

(01:08:40)

shows the number at 52. There are 68 carriage licenses currently. Okay, sure.

(01:08:46)

How many carriages are currently in operation?

(01:08:54)

I am not sure how many are operating throughout the day, but there are 68 that are authorized to work.

(01:08:59)

Is that number different from the number of owner licenses? 68 corresponds to

(01:09:03)

the owner license. Okay, but is that different from what is in operation? That is what I am asking. So there are 68 licenses that relate to the carriage. There are owner licenses. There are 208 licenses for drivers.

(01:09:18)

I would not say every driver is out every day with the carriages. I think it fluctuates based on what the owner wants to put out that day. What is the average value of a carriage or a license? We looked over the bills

(01:09:31)

of sale. I think on average, over the many years, it is maybe approximately $70,000. I think that could fluctuate. It could be different negotiating terms in each contract. So it is something we can continue to evaluate with the Council.

(01:09:48)

Okay. Are owner licenses transferable? If so, how? They are transferable.

(01:09:52)

Right now there is a cap on the category that I think was instituted 10 or so years ago. It requires an agreement between the previous owner and the new one and notification to the agency as well.

(01:10:05)

What happens to an owner license if it expires? Can it be renewed? Yes. I

(01:10:13)

believe we are able to issue up to the cap, which is 68. So if there is an expiration, we would be able to issue a license.

(01:10:19)

Can expired licenses be recovered in any way? There is typically...

(01:10:24)

There is typically a grace period we provide after an expiration to allow a business to come back in and renew. This is applicable to all of our categories. The grace period is 59 days. If you are coming back for a license after the 59-day period, generally you are going to have to get a new license. Thank you.

(01:10:45)

Thank you, CM Marte. Thank you, Chair. Last year the Department of Health ordered an independent veterinarian to inspect the stables and test the horses. What was the process in choosing that veterinarian?

(01:11:01)

In late 2025, the Health Department undertook a pilot initiative to conduct clinical exams as part of our stable inspection. So we put out a solicitation broadly, sending it to equine veterinarians we could identify in New York State and the surrounding states. There was one response.

(01:11:26)

And so you say that this veterinarian was completely independent from the administration and willing to do the work with an independent mindset?

(01:11:38)

The veterinarian who responded to the solicitation met the requirements of the solicitation, which was that they were not — we wanted someone who was not already engaged in the industry.

(01:11:50)

And can you elaborate on the investigation and the findings of the veterinarian?

(01:11:56)

The veterinarian did an assessment of 12 horses, following the same criteria that the Administrative Code sets out. It really lays out a lot of the details for the assessment that a veterinarian needs to do of the horse to show that the horses are fit to work in the industry. So this veterinarian was doing that same assessment, with the caveat that these assessments were conducted in the stable.

(01:12:27)

So there were some limitations because of that environment. And is 12 an average amount for a special inspection of horses that typically happens, or is that far below the average if someone were to go and fully investigate the stables and the horses?

(01:12:52)

The pilot program that we did at the end of 2025 was completed for 12

(01:13:00)

horses. Okay. I have a question for Ortiz.

(01:13:11)

Would the administration be open to a shorter phase-out period if we included worker protections that would allow workers to find new employment sooner?

(01:13:26)

I think we would have to discuss. I am certainly encouraged by the perspective of ensuring that we have pathways for workers. I think on balance, we have to review the Bill in its totality to see if a shorter phase-out is something we can accomplish. But I think we are very much open to ideas right now on the table for this one.

(01:13:47)

Final question. All right, I will come back. Thank you. I asked for one final question, but we are trying to keep on time here because we have a lot of people testifying. I respect that. I do not need to ask the question. I respect that. Okay.

(01:14:01)

All right...

(01:14:02)

CM, before I do that, I just want to say one thing — well, two things. One is we have been joined by another Council member. The other is that I am a big fan of the work, but I am disappointed at the data questions that we asked that we did not get answers to, because those questions were submitted to you beforehand. So I just want to make mention of that.

(01:14:24)

I am going to ask the Council member to ask questions. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Speaker.

(01:14:31)

Can I just ask about the six staff? You said they are working in other industries with a percentage of their time, or dealing with the horse issues. For the six staff,

(01:14:44)

I do not have a percentage of time. I would estimate it is probably equivalent to about 100...

(01:14:50)

50 for all the horses, right. Thank you very much. On Carlos Kelly, you talked about the transition and flagged the concerns about making sure there are sufficient worker protections in this transition.

(01:15:01)

When you say worker protections, do you mean helping them transition to a new industry or transition into a related industry just without the horses? I think it is really about securing outcomes for the workers. So I think a transition into employment is something that we would be interested in exploring. I know it has come up in our conversations with labor partners. I know the Bill already contemplates workforce development, for example. So I think that is what we are referring to. So workforce development, but they could be in this industry, like tourism, or within a separate industry. Is that what you are flagging?

(01:15:37)

I think part of that conversation needs to happen with workers as

(01:15:41)

well, in terms of what industries they want to be moving into. And yes, I think that is an important question for them. I think we are certainly open to facilitating whatever outcomes they

(01:15:50)

need. And what is your timeline for that? Obviously this is a pressing issue. We have unfortunately already just had a loss of life. So how are you thinking that conversation is going to be happening in the next couple

(01:16:00)

of weeks? I think the conversations are already happening on this and I think the timeline will have to align with the projected timeline for this Bill to engage in the legislative

(01:16:09)

process. All right, thank

(01:16:09)

you very much and thank you, Chair.

(01:16:12)

Okay, Chair. I just want to clarify my comment on the work of our staff was about our health inspectors. There are other staff who work on this industry as well, reviewing documentation and, as I mentioned, our equine veterinarians, with one full-time equivalent person going out

(01:16:29)

for the health inspector.

(01:16:31)

I just want to make sure that was clear. Thank you.

(01:16:35)

Helpful. Thank you, CM Wilson. Thank

(01:16:41)

you, Chair, and thank you for your testimony. So I live across the street from the stables in Hell's Kitchen, and the stables are homed in my district, so I see the horses quite a bit walking to and from the park every morning. My partner is a lifelong equestrian, so horse care is very important to me and my family. So I have a couple of questions about the transition for the horses. I respect that you said you are still putting this together, but you mentioned in your testimony that you would collect information about the sanctuaries or retirement farms that these horses would go to. So approximately how long will that process take, and once that is given to the drivers, will that be the list of where they can go, or would they be allowed to find other homes for the horses?

(01:17:29)

So the Bill specifies and gives the department direction for information to collect and to provide to the owners. We are still looking at that, and should the Bill pass — which, as you know, we support with caveats — we would be refining that process.

(01:17:47)

So would there be any follow-up at the sanctuaries or retirement farms to ensure that the horses are being taken care of?

(01:18:00)

So I think we are continuing to review the Bill to assess that.

(01:18:02)

Okay. I guess my point is that it is very nice to say that they would be transitioned and sent to a retirement farm or sanctuary, but oftentimes there is more to it than that for the well-being of the horses. The transition from one environment to another can be disruptive, and I would want to make sure that they are actually being taken care of. It is not just a line written on the page, but something the City continues to follow up on to ensure.

(01:18:26)

I think that point is well taken, CM, and we are also encouraged that our colleagues in the Mayor's Office of Animal Welfare have already seen outreach from equine sanctuaries to engage in this work. But I think even as we phase out, it will have to be an interesting multi-agency effort, ensuring, for example, that that office is involved and running checks on this. That is important too. Okay. Thank you.

(01:18:52)

Thank you very much, Council member.

(01:18:57)

Thank you, Chair, for your willingness to hold this hearing. I know it has been a long time coming. I also want to thank the Speaker for her leadership on this issue. I know it takes a lot of courage to be the first sitting Speaker to take this particular position on this issue. But aside from taking a position that I happen to agree with, I want to commend you for the really responsible way in which you are addressing concerns about job loss and things of that nature, and not seeking to demagogue the issue at all. It is a tough thing to do and I want to thank you for your leadership on that.

I would also be remiss if I did not mention the leadership of former Councilman Holden, and had we acted on this legislation when he was in the Council, perhaps a young man would still be alive today. That being said, thank you, Deputy Commissioner, for your testimony, and to the extent that you need Ortiz to assist you with my questions, please have them do so.

I want to start with something in your testimony that really jumped out at me. You tell us the Health Department reviews health certificates, you check that horses are examined every four to eight months, you review furlough records, you make periodic observations, and you monitor whether courses that aspiring carriage drivers must complete are being issued. That is a lot of regulation, and yet an 18-year-old young man is dead. So I want to ask you a question that I do not mean rhetorically at all: at what point does a regulator have an obligation to say, well, we have regulated this activity as much as we reasonably can and the inherent risk remains?

(01:20:39)

So I would say that the Health Department is exercising the authority that the City Council has given to us, and my understanding is that that is why we are here today.

(01:20:49)

Right, because I keep hearing proposals for another inspection, another training requirement, another layer of enforcement. I am wondering: can you identify for me a regulation that would eliminate a horse's instinct to bolt when frightened?

(01:21:07)

I think... All right. I would say this is probably the third administration I have worked in now where the administration is supportive of winding down this industry, and I think your point is well taken that we could be working on the margins, trying to address what is happening in the industry to find short-term solutions. But ultimately the administration is supportive of a long-term solution that protects the conditions of workers, the horses and New

(01:21:31)

Yorkers. Let me ask you something else, and I will be considerate of everyone else's time. If there were no horse-drawn carriage industry in New York City today and someone came to your department with a proposal to create one — to place large prey animals in one of the most heavily visited urban parks in the world, attach open passenger carriages to them and sell rides to the public — knowing everything your department knows today, would the Health Department recommend that the City approve that new

(01:22:05)

industry? What you imply is well taken and I think, as my colleague is saying, that is why we are here

(01:22:13)

today. Thanks very much.

(01:22:16)

Thank you very much, CM Morano. Next is CM Narcisse.

(01:22:27)

Thank you, Chair, and first and foremost, thank you, Madam Speaker, and to the family — I feel you. Thank you so much for being here, being present and using the time to let us know what is going on with you. It is a difficult time and as a mother I can feel you sitting here.

Now it is difficult for me to even get to the questions. Listening to you is just in my head. What is the administration's plan for the horses themselves — homing, sanctuaries, placement, oversight — and who is financially responsible for that transition? That is one. The Bill that we have here on our hands is focused on the licenses of the drivers. What happens to the stable hands and other workers? Some 100-plus workers the union has said the industry supports — are they eligible for any of these transition benefits? Third, what specific industries or roles are being targeted for placement? Is this a real pipeline into union jobs or a generic resume workshop program? Do you know?

(01:23:59)

I will start with the questions about the horses. The Bill is quite specific in directing the Health Department to collect information about where the horses might go and to provide that information to the owners, and then requiring that the owner certify the disposition of the horses and provide that certification to the Health Department. We are still reviewing those provisions to determine exactly how we would do that should the Bill pass, which, as Deputy Commissioner Ortiz mentioned, we support. We would work very closely with the Mayor's Office of Animal Welfare on that.

(01:24:39)

And I would add, CM, the Bill already describes a workforce development program for horse-drawn carriage drivers and other workers engaged in the

(01:24:46)

business of operating such horse-drawn cabs. I am encouraged that the Council has already drafted, or is keeping, these workers in mind — both the drivers and the stable hands. I think we want to make sure that that is preserved throughout a final version of the Bill, in whichever mechanism we decide to support the workers.

(01:25:08)

What could have been done here in this situation to prevent the death of this young man? As the Speaker eloquently articulated, this was preventable. The Council has set out a law that clearly says that a horse must be attended to and cannot be left unattended.

(01:25:36)

One life is too many. Thank you so much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much, CM Brewer.

(01:25:45)

Thank you very much. A couple of questions. One is just in terms of how does the Health Department and NYPD communicate? You said that when there is a situation where the Health Department has perhaps given some summonses, but that NYPD does the actual violations depending on the situation — how does that communication take place?

(01:26:12)

We are in regular communication with NYPD, particularly on days like today and yesterday where we know we are most likely going to reach those weather thresholds — the temperature and humidity threshold — so it is routine. What I meant to say about the summons is that we are not necessarily at the hack stands at the time that those suspensions occur, so in order to provide that share with full information about violations, I wanted to be able to get that — to talk to NYPD first.

(01:26:44)

Okay, so you basically go back and forth with emails, situations, emails, phone calls — not only during the business day but off hours and weekends. It is a regular communication.

(01:26:57)

Okay, okay, go ahead. I am sorry. Accounts can't...

(01:26:59)

Remember, go ahead. I would just add that the process of having this joint task force that we have had centralized in Central Park has also facilitated trainings that we provide to Central Park Command and Parks Enforcement as they conduct their on-street or park enforcement. Okay.

(01:27:17)

Thank you. Other cities — the briefing paper talks about Philly and other places. My issue is workers. In some cases they have had much smaller numbers. I think there were 10 people in Chicago — or Chicago was even fewer. But have you looked to see what worker programs have been effective in other cities, or are they too small to even consider, because you have obviously many more?

(01:27:44)

Thus far, the agency has not looked into other worker programs. I know we have had initial conversations with our colleagues, such as at the Mayor's Office and the workforce development office, that will have feedback on how to build a sustainable program. But I think if there are lessons to be learned from other municipalities about how they transitioned out, we are certainly open to taking that feedback.

(01:28:03)

The briefing paper had some ideas — you could get the same — but there were some ideas there. I have been on this Bill. I have been in the City Council since 2002, a long time, and I have been on this Bill, except when there was an electric car proposal. I am absolutely opposed to any car in Central Park. I am all for building them out. So I want to make sure that the administration is not talking about electric cars or anything like it in terms of this discussion. Thus far I have had no conversations related to electric cars. Health Department, nor have I, and I did not see that in the Bill. Okay, I do not — it is not in the Bill. I want to make sure it does not pop up.

And then the other issue — until we get workers, horses, jobs and tourists sorted — I am supportive of tourists using pedicabs. Is that something that you support? Have you had any thoughts about it? Obviously we have legislation that has not been finalized, but we are thinking about it. Is that something that you think could address the need for tourists? I take pedicabs — you should see me. I know how to do it. I know how to negotiate how much I pay. So I am just wondering what you are thinking about tourism for the future in Central Park.

(01:29:15)

Pedicabs will certainly be an ongoing activity that is happening in Central Park. I did notice a few months back that the Midtown Community Justice Center released a report of recommendations as it relates to the pedicab industry. I think many of the recommendations in there were well taken, and certainly if we are looking to strengthen or improve the pedicab industry as a substitute in the future, we will be ready to engage in that conversation too.

(01:29:39)

I think I would love to do something with that report, so I appreciate it. Thank you.

(01:29:42)

Thank you. Thank you very much, CM Haneef. Thank you, Chair.

(01:29:47)

I just want to begin by speaking to the Morran family. Thank you for being here. I am so sorry for your loss and thank you for trusting the Council with Roman's story. I am thinking of you and your family, and passing this piece of legislation is the most important thing that must come out of today's hearing. We are grateful that the Speaker and our Mayor are supportive. I would like to know what oversight DOHMH currently has over the health and welfare of carriage horses and what are the limits of that authority.

(01:30:26)

And if you could keep it brief — it is a big question.

(01:30:31)

The Administrative Code is quite specific in setting out the role of the Health Department and what we can require from the industry. As I mentioned in my testimony, highlighting some of the key areas: horse owners are required to have veterinary exams every four to eight months and to submit certifications of those exams to us. We are reviewing those. They are required to submit documentation showing proof of vacation furlough — five weeks a year — at a place where there is a pasture opportunity for turnout. The license is renewable, so there are all of those things that we are checking.

(01:31:13)

Got it. And then is there a standardized criteria for determining when a horse is not fit? We have a certification form that a veterinarian licensed in New York State signs off on, and our in-house veterinarian reviews those.

(01:31:37)

How frequently are vets checking horses' health? So the vets — is there then an owners' vet and what is the frequency? The Administrative Code requires a veterinarian check every four to eight months. The owners have veterinarians who check their horses. We have veterinarians who review those certifications. A veterinarian would also, as I noted earlier, when we have reason to think that there is a need for an assessment of a horse — because of our observation, or something referred to us by NYPD, or we are observing based on a complaint — we will also direct the owner to have their veterinarian assess the horse.

(01:32:29)

And are you able to share how many violations DOHMH has issued over the last five years for noncompliance or non-adherence to the many forms and check-ins?

(01:32:47)

I have data from 2023 through April 2026. For lacking a record of a medical exam, or the exam not being within the time frame, we have issued 17 summonses. Missing proof of five weeks of...

(01:33:04)

Furlough — we have 12. I will come back for a second round.

(01:33:13)

Okay. Thank you, CM Wang. Thank you.

(01:33:19)

Thank you. A question regarding the Mayor's executive order. Mayor Eric Adams issued Executive Order 56 in September 2025, directing your agency to identify alternative employment for carriage workers between September 2025 and today. Were any workers contacted, how many were offered services and how many were placed in new jobs? Please answer that.

(01:34:09)

Thank you for the question, Council Member.

(01:34:11)

My understanding is that at the time the agency was engaging with the industry on winding down pursuant to the executive order, and I know they engaged in active conversations, particularly with labor partners, but also had staff operating in the field in Central Park to liaise with workers. That is my understanding of the touch points of what the Mayor's office ended up doing under that executive order. So the responsibility to reach out to workers — we worked closely with them to provide them contact information and data, and then the Mayor's Office ended up taking the lead on the next steps on that.

I think, as I mentioned earlier in my testimony, workforce development is not necessarily something that our agency currently administers or engages in. There are other agencies across the City that do that work. I think our part of the conversation — part of the administration — is now responding to implementing this Bill.

(01:35:15)

A question for your agency: your agency has been responsible for inspecting and licensing carriage horses in the City. The horse Ryder was cleared as fit to work yet was found to be nearly 30 years old and suffering from a neurological disease. The horse Lady died in the street. Another horse, Deimos, died in the park. Question: how many inspections were conducted on each of these horses in the 12 months before their deaths and what did those inspections actually find? Please answer that. So for Deimos, I did want to note that our report following his death — as everyone will probably remember — was that that horse had ingested a toxic plant, and I did want to highlight that our course for drivers includes the Parks Department requirement that horses not eat the vegetation. Okay. Thank you.

(01:36:28)

Well, were there any inspections done on these horses?

(01:36:32)

So we can — for David that died — we can pull up the certifications that the horses' veterinarians would have provided to us in order to be licensed.

(01:36:47)

Okay. Thank you very much, CM Ariola. Thank you, Chair. And thank you for coming to testify. I have a question — I would want to go back to the...

(01:36:58)

Vet. Who is the contracted vet for the Department of Health?

(01:37:05)

We have multiple contracted veterinarians. Okay. Who would be one that is a large animal veterinarian, an equine veterinarian?

(01:37:18)

The veterinarians — the veterinarians I have been speaking about are equine veterinarians.

(01:37:23)

Do you know the names of those veterinarians — the one that you use most of the time?

(01:37:31)

There are multiple equine veterinarians that we work with. And you have their names?

(01:37:42)

I would rather not provide their names here. Why would that be?

(01:37:52)

The equine veterinarians work with us at the Health Department under contract and I would prefer not to provide their names. Is there a reason why?

(01:38:01)

You do not want to provide their names — is it because they have been suspended in the past or relieved from their position? Is there any type of history of using steroids in horses or submitting certificates of examination for horses to the Department without doing those exams? Would that be why you would not want to mention their names?

(01:38:28)

I am not aware of the implications that you are making. I am trying to protect their privacy.

(01:38:39)

This is an issue that is very important, because part and parcel of why this legislation is so important is that we are just as concerned about the health and well-being of the horses. If we have compromised veterinarians that are checking the health of the horses before they are going out onto the street, then that is a problem. That is why it is important that this Committee — and perhaps you would like to share those names with the Chair privately so that it is not made public.

I understand. I appreciate that. I do want to say that the veterinarians who certify the horses as fit to work or not are not Health Department veterinarians. Those are the veterinarians that the owners engage to be the veterinarians for their own horses, and I do not have their names. But we would be happy to communicate privately. What oversight do you have over the veterinarians the owners choose to examine their horses, which could benefit them if they got a very good health report on their horse? The horses need to be licensed in New York State and to sign off under their license. But again, just to remind everybody, we are here to support the intent of this Bill.

(01:40:01)

Okay. Thank you. We are here to provide reasons why the intent of this Bill is necessary. Thank you.

(01:40:08)

Thank you, Council Member.

(01:40:09)

CM De La Rosa. Thank you, Chair. First, I want to thank the Chair and the Speaker for their leadership on this issue — certainly one that is important for us to be taking up today. I am the former Labor Chair of this Council, and so last session we had a spirited discussion around labor protections, and it is a part of the Bill that I am interested in looking into. Would you agree, Commissioner, that the horse-drawn carriage industry is part of the tourism industry in New York City? I think historically it has been a part of the tourist industry in New York City. Yes, even including in new outreach materials that we have dealt with at the agency pursuant to Council legislation — we have incorporated information on horse-drawn carriages. Great.

(01:40:56)

Great. And I want to also join the chorus of Council Members. I think all of us are reeling over the death of Roman and his family's pain is something that we all feel. A lot of us here on the Council are parents, and those of us that are parents can certainly feel the weight of this after this incident. I want to ask you, however, about other families that have experienced similar deaths in New York City due to tourism-related activities. In April 2025, a sightseeing helicopter crashed into the Hudson and six tourists in New York City were killed. In July 2021, a pedicab driver was hit — the pedicab driver passed — and the two people who were in the pedicab were injured. Would the administration also be in favor of banning those industries as they exist today in New York City?

(01:42:04)

Thank you for the question, Council Member. I think to answer your question directly: this is not something we are here to talk to you about today, nor something that we have been presented with to discuss. I do not think we are there yet necessarily with those industries, albeit I think we are open to any types of reforms. I could say that to the pedicab industry, for example. I think when it comes to horse-drawn carriages and your initial question — is it a part of the tourist industry in New York City? Yes. I think what this hearing is about is: should it be? Our position is that it should not be.

Ultimately, there has been a tragic death and I am a father as well, and I cannot imagine the pain that the family is feeling right now. On top of that there have been deaths of animals and it is seemingly happening every year. After robust efforts that many administrations have made to try and reform this industry, I think we are past the point of reform of the industry and we are now at a place of looking to wind down the industry, keeping in mind the livelihoods of workers and how we can phase those out responsibly as well.

(01:43:05)

I appreciate your response. I would urge us to also look at those other industries, because one death is one too many — whether it is a human death, an animal death, a person on a helicopter's death. All of these people come to New York City to take advantage of the amenities that New York City has to offer, and these activities have been part of the cultural and touristic experiences of people who come from all over the world to...

(01:43:30)

...visit our City. So as we look to reform this industry, we should also be taking a look at those other industries. I know Gale is brave and will get in a pedicab. But if an accident happens two years from now in a pedicab in Central Park, we will be in the same position. I maintain that if previous administrations would have done what they needed to do in 2016, we would not be here having this conversation once again. It is easy to say we could have passed a Bill one year ago, we could have passed this Bill ten years ago, and still here we are in 2026. So it is on all of us as we legislate to also look at what future industry issues could arise, so that we are not creating a situation where we are ending one industry in exchange for another industry that is equally...

(01:44:21)

...unsafe. Well, I should say our agency has never shied away from a hard conversation about what we have to do in the City to improve outcomes for New Yorkers. In particular, I would just stress that the ethos of our agency is to deliver concrete outcomes that improve the lives of New Yorkers. So if that is a conversation that the Council wants to have about those industries that we regulate in particular, I am quite willing to have that conversation.

(01:44:42)

Great. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, CM Feliz. Thank you. Thank you, Chair, for this hearing and thank you for your testimony and for the work you have been doing on this issue. I just want to start by briefly speaking in favor of the legislation. We have seen a lot of issues related to these horse carriages — animal welfare issues, including horses literally dying in our streets — and also escalating public safety incidents, including the incident that we saw last month. These are issues that cannot be resolved through reform or training. We have to do what is right. So I just want to thank everyone who has joined today and also everyone who has been in this fight since day one. So a few questions — first about the workers and also then on the horses. You mentioned there are approximately 170 workers in the horse carriage industry.

(01:45:36)

I would say that there are 208 licensed horse carriage drivers. My understanding from some reporting is that not all of those folks are actively engaged in the work, and I do not know if we have a count necessarily yet on the number of folks involved in the stables. Is this seasonal work or is that year-round work, and also what is the general salary? What was the last part of the question? I am sorry.

(01:45:58)

What is the average salary for these workers?

(01:46:00)

I am not sure I am aware of the salary. I think that would be helpful to learn through this hearing process. I think we see horse-drawn carriages out there throughout the year, albeit there are limitations when there are severe weather conditions — as my colleague referred to — on when they can operate. There are also time restrictions that have been put in place and geographic restrictions that have been put in place on the industry over many years. So would you say this is seasonal employment — perhaps eight months out of the twelve months per year? I am not sure...

(01:46:30)

...if I can speak to the full season. Would you say it could potentially be possible — for example, with 200 workers — we obviously have, as you know, had a lot of vacancies in almost every single City agency. Do you think it could potentially be possible to bring all of these workers into our City agencies, or do we see any foreseeable obstacles?

(01:46:58)

I know that the City hiring process itself — I guess it would depend on what role. Certainly people can apply to positions that are available right now. They can sign up for civil service exams right now. This option already exists for workers across the City.

(01:47:16)

A few questions related to the horses. How many incidents related to medical issues have we had in the last two years?

(01:47:23)

The Administrative Code does not require reporting to us of medical incidents, so that is part of the challenge in responding to some of the data questions. We certainly follow the news and get complaints that we follow up on, and get referrals from NYPD. The Administrative Code does not allow horses to be worked when they are ill or injured, so that is part of why we do not have a count. There have been accounts in the press of incidents and we would have those same counts based on our review of the news that we monitor.

(01:48:06)

Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Give me one second.

(01:48:24)

We are trying to see... we think one of our members is online and we are trying to check on that. So give us a second. All right, I want to thank the administration. We are going to take a five minute break and then we are going to resume with the rest of the testimony. Thank you.

(01:56:54)

Ladies and gentlemen, please find your seats. The hearing is about to begin again. Ladies and gentlemen, quiet on the floor. Find your seats, please. The hearing is about to start again. Please find your seats. Thank you. Conversations outside. Quiet on the floor. Quiet on the floor, please. Please find your seats. The hearing is starting momentarily.

(02:02:50)

All right, everyone, we are back in session. I want to call up State Senator Erik Bottcher. It is just me up here. It is just because... I do not know, your colleagues were supposed to comment and I do not know where they are, but go ahead.

(02:03:24)

Good morning, Chair Schulman, members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I represent New York State Senate District 47, which includes Hell's Kitchen, where the horse carriage stables are located, and parts of Central Park where these carriages operate every day. Every day, I and my colleagues who also represent this district — CM Carl Wilson and CM Gale Brewer — we witness 1,500 pound animals pulling carriages nose to tailpipe through Manhattan gridlock, behind buses, trucks and taxis, through construction sites. I have watched this issue unfold firsthand. Our district has been the site of multiple horse carriage deaths, including Ryder and Lady. After years of seeing these tragedies repeat themselves, I have reached one unavoidable conclusion: the status quo is not sustainable.

And then, of course, we witnessed what so many of us feared would happen — the loss of human life. Romance came to New York to experience the world's greatest City. Instead, his family experienced the most unimaginable tragedy. His death made clear what many of us have known for years, what the Central Park Conservancy has been saying: that tourist horse carriages are fundamentally incompatible with modern Midtown Manhattan.

I want to make a very important point that this Bill is the best path forward for the workers. Now is the time to help them transition before the industry's decline leaves them with fewer options. Waiting only makes this transition harder as we move forward. The carriage drivers must be part of this process. They must be kept informed every step of the way and have a seat at the table, and be given access to new employment opportunities with the wages, benefits, health care and job security that they do not currently have.

Finally, I want to say that it is so important that we do not demonize each other during this process. That includes the drivers, the stable owners, the union, the animal welfare advocates and the elected officials. I want to thank my former colleagues in the City Council for supporting this legislation. I know firsthand that this is not an easy issue. When I was a sponsor of this Bill, I had full page ads taken out against me in the New York Post, and they were really...

(02:06:25)

...nasty. But leadership sometimes comes with a political cost, and I want to thank all of you for your courage. I know that one day we will look back at this moment and be proud that New York City chose compassion, safety and common sense. I urge you to pass this legislation as soon as possible. Thank you very much.

(02:06:48)

Thank you, Senator. I apologize — I was supposed to read something before the Senator spoke, so I will do it now. I want to thank the members of the administration who were here earlier. We are now opening the hearing for public testimony. I want to remind members of the public that this is a government proceeding and that decorum shall be observed at all times. As such, members of the public shall remain silent at all times. The witness table is reserved for people who wish to testify. No video recording or photography is allowed from the witness table. Furthermore, members of the public may not present audio or video recordings as testimony, but may submit transcripts of such recordings to the Sergeant at Arms for inclusion in the hearing record.

If you wish to speak at today's hearing, please fill out an appearance card with the Sergeant at Arms and wait to be recognized. When recognized, you will have two minutes to speak on Int 0943-2026. If you have a written statement or additional written testimony you wish to submit for the record, please provide a copy of that testimony to the Sergeant at Arms. You may also email written testimony to testimony at council.nyc.gov within 72 hours of the adjournment of this hearing. Audio and video recordings will not be accepted.

I am going to ask Assembly Member Rosenthal to please come up and testify. Thank you.

(02:08:27)

Oh, hey! Okay.

(02:08:31)

Great. Speaker Menin and Chair Marte of the Health Committee, good afternoon. I am Assembly Member Linda Rosenthal, Chair of the Assembly Housing Committee, and I proudly represent the Upper West Side and parts of Hell's Kitchen as well as parts of Central Park. We are tragically reminded that Romane Majon, an 18 year old tourist from India, died after being thrown from a horse carriage on June 17, 2026. I am also an ardent animal rights champion who has passed many laws protecting the rights and lives of New York's most defenseless creatures. Yet despite our collective progress, we still have much to accomplish when it comes to protecting the City's carriage horses from injury and abuse.

To phase out the industry, by passing Romance's Law — in 2011, to combat the rising scourge of deaths and injuries of horses on our streets, I introduced state legislation to ban the use of horse carriages. My intention was to spur the City to take action. But up until today, despite promises and agreements, traffic collisions and dead horses, no Bill has passed. But no one gave up. Charlie, Tickler, Billy, Black, Lady, Denise, Spotty, Juliet, Smoothie, Clancy, Tommy and Ryder — those are the names of some of the horses that have died in New York City as a result of their forced employment. There have been more than a hundred documented incidents of other horses being badly injured on the job. Some have been hit by cars, motorcycles and buses. Others have been badly spooked, endangering the lives of riders, carriage drivers, pedestrians and of course the horses themselves.

We cannot wait for more horses or people to die on the streets in order to act. Cities across the globe that have far fewer tourist attractions have shown us we do not have to tolerate animal abuse to turn a profit. I will wind up by saying the New York City Council and the administration can put an end to this cruelty once and for all. It is amazing what a change in administration and leadership can do. I applaud CM Marte, all the co-sponsors and of course the Speaker for putting forth this Bill that will not only ban this archaic practice, it will also help to transition current carriage drivers into new jobs.

(02:11:07)

One last thing: today would not be possible without the unyielding support and dedication to this issue by all the advocates. And to the many horses who have lost their lives, thank you for honoring the life of Romane Majon. We will ensure that his death will not be in vain. It is high time we join the countries and cities in refusing to accept abuse as the cost of doing business. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much, Assembly Member. No clapping, folks. You can do this, but no clapping. All right. Now I am going to call up the next panel, which is Ashley Byrne, Edie Falco, Bob Holden, Adina Byrne Krantz. And this is going to be a hybrid panel, folks — we also have somebody joining us remotely: Dr. Craig Kolakowski. Who is going first? Go ahead.

(02:12:42)

Thank you, members. My name is Ashley Byrne and I am here speaking on behalf of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. You cannot regulate the abuse and danger out of the horse drawn carriage industry. It is cruel and reckless to force a horse — a prey animal — to live and work in the noise, traffic and chaos of New York City. The carriage operators fight and flout the most mild and common sense rules with little to no enforcement from the City. As you have heard today, oversight is almost nonexistent. Lame, sick, emaciated and elderly horses are regularly documented being forced to pull carriages.

This hearing is taking place in the middle of what has already proved to be a deadly summer delivered by the horse drawn carriage industry. The life of 18 year old Romane was tragically added to the long toll of horses whose lives have been claimed by this industry. Some are names that we know well — the footage of Ryder, Lady and Janie collapsing in our streets sparked widespread outrage and calls for a ban. Many more have died in anonymity, often sold to slaughter after spending their days in traffic being worked to exhaustion and their nights in cramped, solitary parking garage-like buildings, denied everything natural, enriching and comforting to them.

New Yorkers have been fed up with this cruel, deadly industry for years and polls have consistently shown that New Yorkers want the carriages banned. We applaud Speaker Julie Menin for listening to New Yorkers and taking courageous action to move this ban forward. Thank you to CM Christopher Marte for sponsoring the Bill, to Committee Chair Lynn Schulman for holding this hearing, and to the Committee members for your strong inquiry into the practices of this industry. And to the family of Romane, we send our deepest condolences and gratitude. It is time to pass Romance's...

(02:14:56)

...Law. Thank you. Hi. My name is Edie Falco. I am an actress and I am an animal lover and advocate. For some reason I was asked to be here today to tell people how I feel about this, and I think I am going to go way out on a limb here and say, from the deepest part of my heart: these animals are not ours. These animals are not ours. They are not put on this planet to do our bidding. They are not for us to look at and say, that one is going to pull me through the park, and this one I am going to eat, and this one I am going to wear, and this one I am going to experiment on for drugs. This is perhaps the wrong meeting for that, but in so far as my animal advocacy — these are not our animals. They have the right to a God-given, if that is what you believe, life just as we do.

I have a fantasy of us looking back on this in 200 years and saying, remember when we had those big, beautiful, majestic animals pulling us on carriages? The fact that there is anybody in this room that can look at an animal with the apparatus and the carriage and the people in the traffic and the sounds and...

(02:16:17)

...the smells and the heat and say, sure, yeah, that is reasonable — the first time I saw that was 40 years ago. It is 40 years later. I have looked face to face with politicians in this City since then who have said, oh, we are on it, we are on it, it is our platform, we are going to make it happen. To be here today... I am going to say very quickly: I am an empath, it is what I do for a living, and I cannot always turn it off. To listen to Romane's family and what they are going through knocked the wind out of me. I have an 18 year old, and I came to this City as an 18 year old with dreams and a life to start. It is 40 years later and I have lived that dream 4,000 times over. To be here with the honor of potentially naming this law for Romane — for the future he will not have and the dreams he will not get to realize — is the greatest honor of my lifetime. It is time, everybody. It is time. You cannot pretend that you do not know what you know. That is it. Sorry.

(02:17:27)

Thank you. Thank you very much. Bob Holden.

(02:17:31)

Good afternoon, Chair, and thank you for this hearing. I want to thank Speaker Menin and CM Marte for taking up the banner. My name is Bob Holden and I had the honor of representing District 30 in Queens from 2018 to 2025, and I am the original author of the legislation before you today — the Bill that began as Ryder's Law and is now rightfully Romance's Law.

I introduced this Bill in 2022 after a horse named Ryder, nearly 30 years old, malnourished and suffering a disease, collapsed on Ninth Avenue in a heat wave while his driver struck him with the reins. I spent the next four years begging the Council — the former Council that preceded this one — for a hearing. For years trying to get a hearing. The former Speaker Adams refused to allow it flat out. I was told that it would never get a hearing. A deal was made year after year. She personally blocked this Bill from reaching the floor. No hearing, no vote, no voice. 70% of New Yorkers who supported it had no voice. The Central Park Conservancy supports it, endorsed it. The Mayor endorsed it. She still said no.

Now I am going to say something that is difficult to say, and I know the family is here. My original Bill would have banned horse drawn carriages in New York City on June 1 of this year. Romane died on June 17. That should be chilling to the members listening. 16 days. We are talking about 16 days. That is the cost of four years of obstruction. An 18 year old boy on his family's first trip to America, celebrating his graduation, is gone because this industry was allowed to keep operating 16 days past the date my Bill would have shut it down. The hearing I fought for four years is now happening. The Bill is in front of you. The public is behind you. Pass Romance's Law now. Thank you.

(02:19:54)

Very much. Thank you, Adina.

(02:19:59)

Thank you, Committee. My name is Adina Byrne Krantz, Executive Director of NYCLASS. For more than a decade I have documented and reported the dangers of horse carriages. But today, rather than repeat any of that, I want to amplify a voice that deserves this Council's attention. Anita McGill, whose family owned and operated Chateau Stables — once the largest horse stable in New York City — for nearly 50 years, reached out to me because she says several carriage owners are now desperate for a way to leave this business before a ban goes into effect.

"My name is Anita McGill. I am part of Chateau Stables, my family's business. We owned the largest fleet of horse and carriages at our stable at 600 West 48th Street. In 2018 we sold our stable and semi-retired to our family farm. I have been asked to submit a statement by some current horse carriage owners to seek some relief and get help for them to be offered an option to get out of the carriage business. My opinion, talking with them, is that the quaint leisure horse and carriage ride is no longer like it used to be. They are now squeezing past Citi Bikes, joggers, baby strollers and millions of extra parkgoers. This is a safety issue. I feel there are no more safety solutions that can be applied to lower the risk. More and more accidents are happening. Frederick Olmsted designed the park to be seen by horse and carriage — yes, he did — but not in 2026. Central Park is totally different. Just in the past 10 years it has exploded with millions more in population and traffic. Business is way down. I hear from some owners there is nobody applying for a horse and carriage license. Owners struggle to pay the board. What is the benefit? I hope the City allows the horse and carriage owners to get out graciously and compensate them so that they and their horses can live peacefully."

She also made a point about hitching posts. Hitching posts to me are only a recipe for more problems. It encourages drivers to walk away and leave the horses alone. Not every horse accepts being tethered. They can feel tension, panic and back up and damage what is behind them. Horses can rub their bridles off on hitching posts, creating a whole different set of problems. So please pass Romance's Law. No more tragedies. Thank you.

(02:22:13)

Before this panel goes anywhere, we have some Council members with questions. CM... oh, I am sorry, we have the hybrid. I forgot. Dr. Craig Kolakowski, you have two minutes. Dr. Kolakowski, are you online? He is online. Are we having technical issues? He says he is online. Okay. All right, we will come back to him. In the meantime, CM Wong has questions, and we have another Council member also.

(02:23:22)

This question, saying thank you. Councilmember, critics of this Bill have argued it would destroy jobs, and when I was getting my water, someone also told me the same thing as the original author of the workforce provisions in this legislation. What is your response to that argument?

(02:23:46)

Well, first of all, there are some lies out there. Most of the drivers, the vast majority, are independent contractors. That means they are not getting benefits. I would like to know how many union members are actually drivers, real drivers, independent contractors. How many are paying union dues and what benefits do they get right now? I would say, just talking to some of the drivers, they get no benefits. If they have City jobs, well-paying City jobs, they will get health coverage, the pension, and they will get all the things that go along with regular jobs. It is a big scam that is going on. Why does the union not just reveal how many dues-paying union members they have? We might get somewhere, but we will not get that. I never got that in over four years of actually trying to get some movement on this Bill. So there are not great-paying jobs out there. These are day workers or independent contractors.

(02:24:46)

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, Council Member.

(02:24:51)

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I am going to start from my right and go left. I wrote down some of the names. First would be Ashley from PETA. When you found out, or when PETA found out, that Denise the horse had died from eating toxic Japanese yew plants, you being a premier animal rights organization, did you do

(02:25:27)

anything? Yes, we pointed out that Denise never should have been in Central Park in the first place, and that if his driver was attending to him properly, he would not have been eating the vegetation in the first place. If the driver was following regulations, he would not have eaten the

(02:25:41)

vegetation. Well, let us kind of expand this a little bit. So we have toxic plants in the park that are toxic to every species that is native to the park, species that migrate through the park, people walking their dogs in

(02:26:00)

the park, stray cats, whatever. Every single animal is subject to being poisoned or killed by Japanese yew. As an animal rights organization, did you say anything to the Central Park Conservancy about this not being the kind of plant that should be in a park with such a diverse array of animals? Did you address the Conservancy about the horses? Right now, because you know, Denise is already dead. As someone who has been an equestrian for 60 years, I know that horses graze. Have you ever driven by a field of horses where even one was not grazing? That is not how this works. But anyway, moving to other animals, did you have any concerns about any of the other animals in the park, which your organization is supposedly all about? Yes or no.

(02:26:55)

What you just pointed out about horses grazing is precisely one of the reasons.

(02:27:00)

Could you please answer my question? Did you do anything? You are forcing them to be in an environment where they

(02:27:06)

I get to ask the questions and you answer. So my question is, did PETA do anything about the presence of toxic plants in the park? Are you asking if we started a campaign to ban a plant?

(02:27:25)

No clapping, please.

(02:27:26)

When I heard about the plants, I issued a statement, I put in a Bill request about toxic plants in New York City parks, and I wrote to the Central Park Conservancy. So I guess I am more of an animal lover than you are, Edie Falco.

(02:27:46)

That is cute, but any... No, no, no, I am done with my question. And I am going to...

(02:27:54)

Council Member, time is up.

(02:27:59)

Council Member, thank you. I want to just first say I am a big fan and I love The Sopranos. It is my favorite show. I would love to hear from you. How do you respond to people who believe that supporting horse welfare and supporting carriage drivers are mutually exclusive? Why do you think it is important to care about both?

(02:28:37)

As an animal lover, I am here on behalf of the animals. I am an advocate. Things change, life changes. You know, the tobacco farmers had to find other things to do when people started to say, you know, this is killing us, we cannot smoke as much. I think you learn that when it is time to move on, it is time to move on. I think it is deeply important to make sure that these people who have spent their lives as carriage drivers, potentially the lives of their parents and their families, are looked out for, for sure. I am so glad that the Speaker has made that a big part of what she is doing, and other people here as well. I am here to speak for the horses, because they cannot say, like a pedicab driver, when you say to him, do you want to pedal these people all the way up here in 90-degree heat, he could say, you know what, no, it is too hot, I am not doing it. The horse cannot say that. I think for those of us who are moved to do so, because we think it is right and humane,

(02:29:55)

someone has got to look out for them. So that is my priority. It is my reason for being here today. I believe the humans will most definitely be taken care of. But I am here for the horses. Thank you for using

(02:30:06)

your voice and platform and years of advocacy. The next person

(02:30:14)

is Gale Brewer. Thank you. I want to thank you for that conversation that you just shared with us. My question is, because that is not something that we have heard before, my question is:

(02:30:25)

do you think that the owners feel they could contribute to ending this carriage horse industry? That was quite shocking and surprising and... what you just

(02:30:41)

said. Right. I think there is a lot of fear among some of these people to speak out, but I think they are desperate to get out. They are afraid of another horse spooking and killing someone because it is happening so often. I think they want to get out of this business even before a ban goes into effect. She said that the several that she is speaking with, there are many more, but many are afraid to speak out for fear of retaliation or what not. So yes, I think that there is a strong feeling that they want to get out now and they would like to be compensated, which I know is already in the legislation, but I think there is a worry that that will not happen. Okay.

(02:31:22)

Yeah. Thank you very much. They do sit on very expensive real estate, so that will be helpful to them. Go ahead. Thank you.

(02:31:31)

Okay, we have Council Member Feliz.

(02:31:36)

Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Also thank you for all the work you do to use your voice to help the voiceless. So two questions, and my time is very limited, I will be fast. First, thinking about the transition phase and helping the workers with employment, to your knowledge, approximately how much do these workers earn, and also is it full-time employment? I have asked these questions to the administration and have not gotten any answers, so I am wondering if you know.

(02:32:07)

Industry spokespeople have said, I think, $60,000 a year, but it is seasonal work because for many months out of the year, in the winter, there is no business. It is an independent contractor job. I have spoken with carriage drivers who were injured, badly injured. If they are injured, they simply get no income. They have no health insurance, they have no worker compensation, no overtime, no sick leave, no worker protections of any kind, because they are not classified as employees. Why would a union be representing wealthy millionaire carriage owners who misclassify their workers and deny them even the most basic worker protections, guaranteed salary, no kind of living wage, no benefits of any kind? That is a question to ask. There have been many carriage drivers quoted during heat waves saying, I cannot pay my bills, we cannot survive. This is not a lucrative job. You can Google these things. They are all coming from the horse's mouth, the horse carriage drivers' mouths. So I have long wondered why a union would be representing this kind of labor situation when there are real union jobs on the table, guaranteed full-time jobs with salaries, worker protections, benefits, health insurance.

You know, 20 years ago there was a carriage driver who nearly died. He was thrown from the carriage, suffered a skull fracture, and was in a coma for months. His wife was interviewed saying that he was often scared driving the carriage. So 20 years ago, we nearly lost the life of a carriage driver in the same way that Roman died 20 years ago.

(02:33:53)

And also my second question is, as we know, leaving a horse carriage unattended can create the public safety risks that we continue to see in Central Park.

(02:34:02)

I was curious, how often have we seen that? Literally every day. I have a video which I would love to show to all the Council Members. This carriage driver is doing exactly what got Roman killed. He is on a busy street, busier than where Cherry Hill is. There is a cop car behind him. He is in Grand Army Plaza in traffic. He is literally stepping far away from the carriage with a baby in the carriage. This was taken yesterday, doing exactly what got Roman killed, but in more danger. If this horse had spooked and taken off, a baby could be dead, a family and everyone in traffic. It happens every single day. I have hours and hours of footage of this, and when reported to the City they do nothing. They are not capable of enforcing these laws. We saw the poor testimony. I think it is just not possible to run

(02:34:55)

after 68 carriages who do not give a damn about the safety and welfare of their own horses or the public. It is not going to happen. So we have got to shut it down. Thank you.

(02:35:04)

Thank you. Thank you, Amanda. A couple of things. One is I just want to mention that when the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection testified today, they said that drivers make $70,000, so I want to point that out, and it was in their testimony. I want to acknowledge that we have been joined by Council Member Restler and Council Member Marte, who has questions. Thank you all for being here and thank you, former Council Member Bob Holden, for your leadership on this issue. I know we have

(02:35:32)

stood together for a really long time, and I am glad that you are here to play a part in this hearing as well. I wanted to just follow back on the questioning of Council Member Feliz. A data point: how often do you see unattended horses in Central Park, and how many documented episodes do you have that illustrate what we know is reality?

(02:35:55)

I have been involved in animal advocacy in different facets, the wild horse issue, wildlife, urban wildlife, but also the horse carriages, for almost 20 years. It has been happening for 20 years, so constantly, that at a certain point documenting it and reporting it became futile, but I still do it all the time. The day after the industry held their press conference saying that they had taken extraordinary measures and retrained, I just stopped by the park for a brief period of time and in that period I found about 10 horses, just from Sixth Avenue and Seventh Avenue, being left unattended. Some of them had no drivers anywhere around, drivers taking pictures. It is literally happening every day, multiple times a day.

I believe there is going to be testimony from a pedicab driver who has been in the business for 23 years who can attest to that. It is part of their advertisements. Like the ride that Roman took, they take pictures. Who is taking the picture? The carriage drivers get out. This is how they make tips, by taking pictures and leaving the horses unattended. But not only that, they are left unattended on the hack lines, they are left unattended in areas that are not even supposed to operate, and at any moment those horses can spook and run.

But it is important to say that many of the worst spooking crashes and injuries have occurred when the driver is in the driver's seat in control, because when a horse spooks and takes off, it often cannot be stopped. It is a huge, powerful animal with a flight drive and they take off. That has happened many times. The busiest park in the world is a very reckless place to operate, and they are still taking pictures. Yesterday I have a video, which I will submit, of a family with a toddler in the carriage right in Grand Army Plaza with a cop car behind them and a lot of chaos going on. He did this in the open because I just do not know that there is any other way that they know how to operate this business, and that is why it needs to be shut down. We cannot expect the City to run after 68 carriages constantly preventing them from killing people. It is not going to happen. Thank you for

(02:38:08)

your advocacy and leadership on this issue. Thank you. Do

(02:38:13)

you want a response? Yeah, if I could just elaborate a little bit. How could you think that a prey animal like a horse, 1,500 to 2,000 pounds, will not get spooked again, even

(02:38:26)

with the driver, as they say, at the reins? It can happen. It can happen any time in a more crowded, noisier city. This is going to happen again and we are just fooling ourselves to think that we can control it. We cannot. So let us wake up, folks. The handwriting is on the wall. This industry has to go by the wayside and we will retrain the drivers. The City will get great jobs, period. Who would be against that except the owners? I never heard of a union representing management, have

(02:39:04)

you? All right, thank you. I would ask you, if you would be kind enough to give us specific amendments to the Bill that you would like to see changed, we would like to get that from you. Absolutely. So if you could submit that, that would be great.

(02:39:20)

All right. I want to thank this panel very much for taking the time to be here today. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

(02:39:36)

Okay, we are going to call up now Borough President Brad Hoylman-Sigal, and we have Erica Sullivan, who works for Assembly Member Deborah Glick. Is she here? Oh, okay. Thank you. Go ahead, Borough President.

(02:40:14)

Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Kalman, members of the Committee, Council, and the sponsor of this law. Thank you, Speaker Julie Menin, for your support of this legislation and for holding this hearing and being here personally. It means a lot. I am Brad Hoylman-Sigal. I had the honor of serving New Yorkers as Manhattan Borough President. You know, Times Square was once lined with blacksmiths and stables and home to the Vanderbilt American Horse Exchange. In fact, my extended family once ran a small business called Miller's Harnesses. Even though Miller's Harnesses is no longer in business and there have been dramatic changes in the transport of goods, services and people in Manhattan, as we all know, the horse carriage industry continues to operate on the busiest pathways of Central Park, the world's third most visited tourist attraction.

Today we are reckoning not only with an industry many say needs to be more tightly regulated, if not outlawed altogether, but with the death of a young man, Munch Baha John, who came to New York for what was supposed to be the trip of a lifetime and who fairly assumed, along with his family, that when they took a City-regulated tourist ride, it would be safe. That was an avoidable tragedy. One no family should ever have to face. The death of anyone, especially a young person, should be enough to demand change.

But for my testimony today, my team and I wanted to take a step back and look at some sober statistics around the issue. So we reviewed public records, including the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene data, for every documented report of carriage horse incidents in and around Central Park dating back to 1982. What we found was evidence of 96 serious carriage horse incidents, including human injuries, and 40 horse deaths between 1982 and 2026. The annual incident rate has more than quadrupled, and in just under half those cases a horse died. When a horse escapes its carriage, our data showed that a person is hurt over half the time. The trend is only getting worse. Over the last 13 months alone, we counted eight incidents, more than double the pace the industry has averaged since 2019.

We collaborated with a professor from the mathematics department at Columbia University on a forecast model based on this data set. If the pattern holds, our forecast shows we could see 16 to 30 more carriage incidents by 2030, almost certainly with human injuries, and upwards of 11 more horse deaths. New Yorkers are concerned about this trend line too. We have seen recent polling data that shows 68% of respondents supported ending horse-drawn carriages in New York City. In concert with this finding, 311 data shows 175 horse-related animal abuse complaints since 2022, a third of them from inside two streets of the park in the industry's own stables.

It is clear the status quo is unacceptable. That is why I joined my colleagues in co-sponsoring this law. But any serious case for winding this industry down has to reckon with the hundreds of workers who would be at risk of losing their livelihood. I want to be clear that the drivers doing this job every day are not to blame for these tragedies, and the City has an

(02:43:41)

obligation to collaborate with them on finding a professional landing. Int 0943-2026 directs to build a workforce transition program. I urge this Committee to make sure it is funded and staffed before drivers lose their routes. Int 0943-2026 also prohibits selling or transferring any horses for slaughter or into other City carriage businesses. Last September, two dozen equine rescues and sanctuaries offered to place every horse this industry retires. I hope this Council, and I know this Council, will work with that coalition to ensure a smooth and safe transition. The full horse incident record review of our 301 data and our analysis is available online in our report, "Should New York City Ban Horse Carriages?" In tribute to his loving family, who I understand are with us today, I urge the Council to pass Roman's Law. Thank you very much.

(02:44:44)

Thank you very much. Sullivan. If you can keep it brief, we would appreciate it.

(02:44:52)

Absolutely. Good afternoon. My name is Erica Sullivan. I am here from New York State Assembly Member Deborah Glick's office to read her testimony. Thank you for the opportunity to testify in strong support of the passage of Int 0943-2026 to ban the operation of horse-drawn carriages in New York City, ensure the drivers a transition to employment and retire the horses to sanctuaries for their healing and freedom.

Horse-drawn carriages are an outdated industry where animals are exploited for profit as entertainment, comparable to the use of wild animals in circuses, which the City has outlawed. The incidents involving horse-drawn carriages are predictable results of horses being put to work in our City and represent preventable chaos and tragedy. We learned the news of horses fleeing and colliding with cars resulting in injury, collapsing and taking their last breaths on our streets, and the tragic death of Roman Mahajan. To his family and friends, I extend my sincere condolences.

Horses should not be subjected to breathing in exhaust fumes, dressed in costume with blinders on and living in buildings that are ill-suited to comfortably shelter them, even on our City's most beautiful day. This attraction is antiquated. Fifteen years ago we were having the same discussion, with calls for replacing horse-drawn cabs with electric vehicles to carry visitors through our parks. It is time for this debate to finally end. Horses bolt when frightened and collapse when overworked, and no amount of tighter reins, hitching posts, studies, regulation or reform could effectively avoid or alter the innate behavioral responses of these powerful animals. The only way to avoid the next tragedy involving horses is to pass Int 0943-2026 and ban horse-drawn carriages in New York City. Thank you for your time and attention.

(02:46:53)

Thank you very much, and thank you both for taking the time to come and do this today. We appreciate it. All right, next panel. Jon Chi, counselor, had questions. She had some general questions. Oh, I am sorry. All right, we have... Okay. John, she... Yellow Gabriel Cook, Christina Hansen, Angel J and Charisse Dubois.

(02:47:38)

I will make sure... Yes, who is going first? Okay.

(02:48:01)

Good afternoon, City Council Members. Good afternoon. I am John Chiarello, President of Local 100. I represent 44,000 union members across this great City and I also proudly represent the horse and carriage industry. First, I would like to give my sincerest condolences to the family of Romesh, who was killed in an accident last month. Tragic and unforeseen. Our hearts go out to him and his family.

My members in the horse and carriage industry are mostly immigrant workers and laborers that are in Central Park. What about my members' American dream? Councilman Mark was nice enough to give statistics on the industry. Let us talk about race tracks — in the last 10 years, 10,000 horses have died at race tracks. I do not see anything happening there. Let us talk about the food delivery services that run right past this building, that nearly ran me down and maim and kill people every single day — electric bikes, Amazon boxes that are propelled by electric means that do not have a license on them. Nobody is talking about that. But this small microcosm of an industry that has been iconic to Central Park is now under attack, and it has been under attack for quite some time. There is a 165-year history. I would put them up against any other means of transportation and I all but guarantee you that they have done worse.

The other people that are not my people — Uber, pedestrians are run down all the time. Banning Uber? No, we are not. So where is the justice? The animal rights advocates talk about the horses not being treated fairly. That is another misrepresentation. They get fed and they get five weeks of vacation. I am asking the City Council to table this. Let everybody have their moment. I have been very patient, so I am going to finish this. I am asking the City Council to table this and also take up Councilman Gennaro's offer of making a safer place in Central Park.

The horse and carriage business has been around before the City was even incorporated. It is part of the history of this City and it would be a shame for tourism to annihilate them in one swoop of the hand. As far as union jobs, I do not even know what that looks like. But if you are a horse and carriage driver, I do not think you want to be a host at a restaurant. I do not think you are looking to do hotel bellhopping or reception work. So I would caution the Council on what they put in this Bill and speak with the union, Local 100. We move this City and I want to thank everybody for their time. Thank you.

(02:51:23)

Thank you. Who is next on the panel? Okay.

(02:51:28)

Mind if I make... Okay. Pardon me. Conor McHugh. Thank you for having the hearing. I have been a carriage driver for six years and a stable manager for 22 years, all collectively at the same time. I will tell you that being a carriage driver in Central Park is one of the best jobs you can have in New York City. There are 68 horse-drawn cabs in New York City and collectively we have invested millions of dollars over the years in our business. Taking a horse and carriage ride in Central Park is one of the most iconic things to do in New York City and people from all over the world know about us and travel to New York to come for a carriage ride in the park. A ride in the park is folklore.

In the past 20 years there has been a concerted effort to drive us off our land on the West Side and out of our buildings in Manhattan, and this coincides with the rezoning of the area now referred to as the Hudson Yards, where all of our stables are located. This intimidation has taken various forms over the years, between reporting us to ICE and the keyboard warriors, traction also on social media, and animal rights volunteers who have come to Central Park to harass our drivers and the business in general and create an unsafe environment in Central Park. It is no wonder that their actions have caused incidents and accidents over the years. On more than one occasion, some of these people — the people who testified here before you today — have been arrested for attacking and assaulting carriage drivers and our customers. I am sure you are well aware that New York Class over the years had to pay thousands of dollars in fines because of campaign finance violations. As we know from history, the best way to steal people's land is to ridicule and demonize and ultimately bankrupt them until they can no longer pay their bills. In Ireland, the British planted yew trees and shrubs on the land that they stole from us.

(02:53:38)

In order to poison the peasants' livestock if they wandered into their lands. The Central Park Conservancy, I see, has adopted the same policy. While paying themselves tens of millions of dollars in salary, they have planted poisonous yew all over Central Park and nobody knows who is being poisoned by them. Accepted — thankfully, we were able to identify what happened to our horse. God knows how many horses they have poisoned, and just like the Brits, they blame their victims. In addition, the Central Park Conservancy has introduced in the last 10 years or so approximately 800 motorized pedicabs to Central Park. I know the Speaker did a study on this and you found that 93% of the pedicabs operating in Central Park are motorized illegally, and as you know, almost none of them are actually licensed at all and they rampage through Central Park every day. But you want to blame us for the racket that has been created in Central Park. I beseech you to drop this Bill completely and instead consider CM Gennaro's Bill. If you pass this, this is a total act of vandalism and a miscarriage of justice on trumped-up charges — the worst that New York City will ever have perpetrated.

(02:55:02)

Thank you. Thank you. Next. I am sorry. Who? Okay.

(02:55:08)

All right. My name is Cristina Hansen. I am the shop steward for Local 100 Central Park Carriages and a carriage driver. I have been a commercial carriage driver in Philadelphia and New York City for 20 years this month and I have been here in New York for 14 years. It is hard to fit a 5,000-year-old partnership, centuries of history and decades of experience into two minutes of testimony, but at least it is longer than a TikTok. It is good to be here in the same room with all of you in person and not online in some comments section. Horses helped build this very building 200 years ago. There is George Washington and his horse, Old Blue. But at the same time that we in this industry have been devastated and have been mourning the Mahajan family, we are now being forced to fight for our own.

I have noticed that many people in this room have spent more time creating content for social media on this issue than coming to the stables, petting our horses and meeting our drivers. Unlike the last panel that purports to speak for us, in the rest of this hearing you are going to hear from our drivers and carriage owners, and you can hear from them about how much they love their horses. Who are other people to speak for our horses than the people that know them best?

Horse-drawn cabs have been licensed and regulated. Rates have been set by the City since 1813 and we have been giving rides in Central Park since the day the park opened. That is the Rental Horse Licensing and Protection Law, in effect since 1981. We are the definition of a lawful, regulated business and our safety statistics bear it out. If anything has changed since the Borough President's testimony in the last 40 years, it is smartphones. People are disconnected from reality but at the same time they can post things they see online all the time.

History has shown us that absolutely horrible things have been done in the name of progress and many beautiful things are destroyed. Opponents of the carriage industry have weaponized push polls to make everybody say the majority of New Yorkers want this ban. That has not been borne out by our union's polls of Central Park users. Seventy percent of Central Park users found that carriage horses add beauty and charm to the park and 60% oppose the ban when this was done last fall. My real-world experience bears this out — the smiles you see from people in Hell's Kitchen, the delight in children petting horses in the park.

Real-world experience: we were closed for six months during the pandemic. We went into the pandemic with 68 carriages and four stables and we came out with 68 carriages and four stables. Think of all the New York City businesses that we lost, and now you are here trying to lose another one.

There has been a lot of talk about job retraining and workforce development. I am a horse person. I grew up in Lexington, Kentucky, horse capital of the world. I own a horse. His name is Sherman. I expect he is 12 years old and I expect him to live for another 20 years. This Bill is telling me that I cannot go work with my horse in another place to pull a horse and carriage. I would wonder then if I could have my horses as rental riding horses in Central Park. The Borough President just said his family is from Miller's Harness Company, Miller's Horse Company from Manhattan, which started the mounted unit. Could I get a job with them in the stable or riding as a police officer? Those horses are here in Midtown in traffic in the streets. They are owned by the City, but that is a good City job, and that is what I am skilled at. I do not need to be told to go work in a hotel or something like that. I am a horse person. So will the City be giving me a job with one of your police horses?

(02:59:08)

Who is next? Right.

(02:59:14)

Dr. Cook? Yes. Can you hear me? Yeah. Good afternoon. But first I...

(02:59:20)

I am so sorry for the tragic tragedy that brings us all here today. My name is Gabriel Cook. I am a board-certified equine surgeon and I provide medical care to many of the New York City carriage horses. Four years ago, members of the industry reached out to me and asked if I would be willing to offer more consistent medical care. I agreed with the understanding that my examinations would be more critical in nature, complete physical examinations would always be performed and horses would be trotted during the examinations to ensure soundness. If found unfit in any way, the horse would be temporarily suspended until healthy.

I also provide tele-consultations when needed and made my referral hospital available to them 24 hours a day. I made it clear that I would be an advocate for the horse and they accepted wholeheartedly. I will not agree with the other panel that horses should not work, and we can get into that later if you would like. Having been doing this for the past four years, let me tell you what I do know. These horses are not abused. They are not neglected. They are not starved. They are not overworked. They are provided proper stabling, clean stalls, good ventilation and as much hay, grain and water as they desire. Stable staff attend these horses 24 hours a day, a standard beyond what I am used to.

Let me tell you what I also know. Despite the intention of the Council's Bill to guarantee the welfare of these horses, it is not possible. There are already innumerable horses unsuccessfully seeking homes. I work with sanctuaries. I work with rescues. They are underfunded, they struggle and sometimes they overburden themselves with horses and the horses do not get the proper care. I am in the trenches. I see these horses. I do this seven days a week. I will tell you this: they will, and when they do become displaced, they will end up in slaughterhouses. I have seen it. They will end up in auctions. They will be euthanized because people do not want to starve these horses. This is not okay, folks, and it is not right.

Finally, having worked in this industry for the past four years, I am in agreement that the industry has its challenges and almost all of them relate to failure in regulation and enforcement. As you so kindly predicted, sir, we would be talking about regulation and enforcement. Almost all of my frustration involves this issue. I have had frustrations resolving this issue. It is extremely disappointing that no New York City agency or the New York City government has been willing to take control and responsibility. I truly, truly believe that with the proper regulation, enforcement and collaboration — and here is the word...

(03:02:07)

...collaboration and teamwork. This could be a robust, healthy and safe industry. To ban it now without making that attempt would be unjust.

(03:02:17)

I thank you all very much for your time and I would be extremely eager to answer lots of questions. Okay. Thank you.

(03:02:25)

Who is next?

(03:02:26)

Angel. Thank you. Hi. So my name is Angel and I have been doing this for a long time. Are we...

(03:02:34)

Drop the mic a little bit closer to you. Thanks.

(03:02:37)

Sorry. Yeah, it is all right. So my name is Angel. I have been working with horses almost all my life. I love what I do and I just want to make sure the horses stay in our hands. We have family. Everybody here in this business, we have families to support. I am one of them. I have two kids and I really do not want to see my horses go. I love what I do and I would not do anything wrong to one of my horses, ever.

A lot of these people, they said that we have abused the horses, that we do not take care of the horses, and that is not true. I am here because I love what I do. I love my horses. My family, they know that I love what I do and they do not want to see me giving up what I do. So everybody talks and says the horses are not in good health, that we do not take care of them, and like I said before, it is not true. It is not true. My kids, they know that I spend so much time, almost all the time, taking care of my horses. Even Dr. Cook, he knows that every time I have a question I call him. I make sure to do the right thing with my horses. Like I said, everybody has a family and to end up with this business today, I do not think it is the right thing to do, guys, to be honest. I love my job and I would not do anything else. Okay. Thank you.

(03:04:10)

Good afternoon, Chair, Committee members, staff. My name is Sherif. I am the Political Director for TWU Local 100. We appreciate the opportunity to be able to testify today, but I would be remiss if I did not begin by expressing our disappointment with this legislative process. Many members of this Council have chosen to co-sponsor Int 0943-2026 before ever sitting down with the workers whose lives were forever changed by this legislation, before speaking with you, before hearing from the families who have devoted generations to this industry, and before this public hearing was even held. Many Council members had already decided the outcome.

This is not what meaningful public participation looks like. Public hearings should exist to inform legislative decisions, not simply ratify decisions that have already been made like a kangaroo court. Our members deserve due process. They deserve to be heard before the City Council votes to eliminate their livelihoods. You say that people do not want this business, but this business has survived two pandemics, the Civil War, Superstorm Sandy — there are so many things that have occurred, and this business is still here.

The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits government from taking private property for public use without just compensation. Nobody can dismiss the contributions that they have already made and the investments that they have already made to operate this business, which was regulated by the City of New York. Where are the sanctuaries that you speak of? How many horses have been committed to placements? Who is paying for the decades of feed, the veterinary care, transportation and maintenance? Those questions remain unanswered.

Our members consider these horses part of their families. They do not want them sold at auctions or placed in uncertain circumstances. Ironically, this Council recognizes this year's budget reflects how expensive animal care can be, by funding assistance for low-income pet owners. Central Park belongs to every New Yorker. It does not belong exclusively to wealthy donors and advocacy organizations or private conservancies.

We offer our condolences to the Mod John family. But last year, a pilot named Shaun Johnson, Augustine Escobar, his wife and three children died in a helicopter that crashed in the Hudson, celebrating one of their children's ninth birthdays. You can never say what could happen. I pray to God that we all could not have these tragedies and could avoid them, but that is the fabric of our lives. We cannot avoid tragedy.

I am not holding any industry accountable for any wrongdoing, but their deaths are also very tragic and heartbreaking. Their deaths have not been tied to a political agenda. Transit workers work very hard and some of them have died on their jobs, along with other members in the labor movement, and sometimes we do not even get an offer of condolence from anybody sitting in this room. I pray that that also changes. I appreciate your time today. Thank you.

(03:07:36)

Thank you. We have some questions from the Council members. First, Speaker Menin has questions. First of all, I really want to thank this panel. We hear the emotion and passion in your voices. John, a couple of questions — thank you for being here. Could you... there has been some testimony today about salary. Could you really clarify this? What is the average driver's salary? What are the benefits that are offered to the drivers as well?

(03:08:07)

So the average salary is anywhere from $65,000 to $70,000. Now, as far as the benefits, understand there is an independent portion to this. They are not civil servants, so we are not able to bargain in the traditional sense. We are actually bargaining with the City Council — that is what we are doing. There is an association under our charter, and as far as benefits, we can offer them dental and eyeglass coverage. The major medical is a whole different issue. Is there a collective bargaining agreement that covers the city's horse carriage drivers currently? None that I know of, other than the charter that allows them into the park.

(03:08:50)

Okay. And after the fatal incident, there were calls for an increase in carriage driver training and implementation of more rigorous testing of driver applicants. What is the union's position on the city's existing testing and oversight?

(03:09:08)

Testing and oversight is great, but we have also gone above and beyond. We have collaborated with our shop steward Christine in making sure that all the members — who you have heard from, and most of them are here today — take this seriously. This is their livelihood and I do not think that they take it for granted. Accidents do happen, as we always say, and I cry like everyone for the family. It is a horrible, horrible thing and there is no question about it.

You mentioned at the beginning about other modes of transportation — e-bikes, et cetera. I do want to say, and I want to respond to that, the Council is also focused on pedicabs, which I know CM Brewer has also been very focused on. The Council is deeply committed to reforming the pedicab industry, dealing with the fact that so many operators are unlicensed and overcharge tourists. We are committed to focusing on the e-bike legislation. We have a package of bills we are about to introduce on that. So I do just want to clarify that because we are focused on those modes of transportation as well. I just end by saying, and I have been saying this from the beginning, we are committed to ensuring your workers' livelihood. The Council understands that right now the language in the Bill talks about worker training. We know that there needs to be additional language negotiated...

(03:10:44)

...and so we look forward to sitting with you and your members and doing just that. Thank you.

(03:10:52)

Thank you, Speaker Menin. Council member...

(03:10:56)

Thank you, Madam Chair. I notice you gave a little extra time for the witnesses. I certainly appreciate that. What I do not appreciate was that it took more than three hours to have a panel that speaks for the industry actually come and speak for the industry. I want to talk to Sherif. You did mention a kangaroo court, and that is precisely what this hearing is. It was announced in the New York Times yesterday that the Speaker had made a decision about what we are going to do with the workers and what is going to happen with the horses, and then she spoke with all the press this morning, and when she opened up the hearing today it was just like, "This is what we are going to do and this is how we are going to take care of this part, and I am going to take care of that part." So in her mind it is already done.

I will just mention that not even half of the members of the Council are even on this Bill as sponsors. So when you talk about the process, you are very right. Members can sign on to whatever bills they want, but when a Speaker comes out and goes to the New York Times, makes a video on the same day, comes out the next day and talks about it, and then opens up the hearing and says this is happening and we just have to figure out how we get it done — that is... I have been the longest-serving active Council member. This is not how the Council is supposed to work, and I apologize for that. I have...

(03:12:39)

...concerns. Dr. Cooke, it is about the fallacy that there are... I mean, I have been in equestrian for more than 60 years. I have been riding horses longer than anybody in this room, and I know horses — saddle horses, for me. You guys with the draft horses, the cold-blooded breeds and all that. But the whole notion — because I know as a horse person — is that sanctuaries are really for horses that have been abused or neglected, and they are very, very underfunded. The animals in your industry would not even go there because they need whatever meager slots they have for the horses that have really been abused. So this whole notion that there are sanctuaries and entities that will pay between $15,000 and $25,000 a year per horse — this is fantasy. I would like you to comment on that.

(03:13:42)

The number might even be higher than that. In terms of what it costs, the numbers are even higher than that. I think everyone has goodwill here and I think people do want to find new jobs for the drivers and they want to find beautiful homes and pastures for the horses. It is so multifactorial and complex. I work on fairly nice, Olympic-quality horses in Fairfield and Westchester County. Some of these horses, when they get turned out, do not even like being outside in the fields. They like the security of the barn. So just to think you are going to put these horses out in a field and they are all going to be happy is also a fallacy. It is one misstep away for a horse and then it will be lost. There are horses now that cannot find homes. So the answer is it is not going to happen. Just realize that you are providing a death sentence for these horses. It is not just the hundreds of horses that are in New York City. You used the words "death sentence" — do you not think this is a death sentence? Okay. Thanks.

(03:14:52)

I think this is a death sentence for not all of them — some will get placed — but for a lot of them it is a death sentence. I think you need to think further than that. It is not just the number of horses we have in this city now. It is the next 150 horses that are in Amish country that are going to be repurposed as carriage horses, because I will tell you, in Amish country, if they do not get repurposed, they are being sold at auction and they are getting euthanized or sent to slaughterhouses out of the country. So if you put it all together, it is more than just the present horses.

(03:15:26)

The other panel — and I appreciate their passion for what they do — and we are never going to agree that horses should not work or that dogs should not work. I watch horses play polo. They are playing the game. The horses are watching the ball. So I do believe there is a joy in the bond between people and animals. There is a joy that animals get from working — bird dogs that are hunting. I see that. My role in all that is to provide medical care for them so that when I feel that they are not fit to do that, we can address it and we can find a solution. But if this ends — forget about these horses, just forget it — they are gone. I thank you, Doctor.

(03:16:14)

My time is up, but I look forward to someday possibly doing another successful reform bill like I did in 2010, which made a big difference. Thank you. We have other...

(03:16:26)

Sherif, I could answer the Council member's question really quickly. Okay, about the kangaroo court. It was very disappointing that members signed on to the Bill without meeting with the workers, especially people in leadership positions, because I feel like we all have a responsibility — this is what you are supposed to do when you are in a leadership role. I have been getting calls the whole time I have been here from Council members saying that they are being pressured to sign onto the Bill. I cannot help but wonder where we would be if the people that came before us, the trailblazers that came before us, had just stopped in the face of opposition and threats. None of us would be where we are today if those people had fallen prey to the opposition that came before them when they fought hard. So I am hoping that you at least give us more time and have a dialogue, because there are things that we all agree on and we should start there. Thank you.

(03:17:30)

Okay. Thank you.

(03:17:34)

CM Marte, thank you, Chair. I just want to state for the record that before we introduced this Bill, my office reached out to the union to set up a meeting, and I also said in that email that I am willing to visit the stables and meet the horse owners. We never got an appointment set up. So we did try to extend the olive branch and have the discussion before the introduction of the Bill, but it was never accepted on the other side. I just wanted to say that because I feel like some of the allegations could be thrown at us. I have a question for the union. For horse carriage drivers who do not own the business or medallion and are hired to drive for someone else, are they classified as W-2 employees or 1099 independent contractors, and if they are employees, who is their employer? Can I answer?

(03:18:31)

Yeah.

(03:18:32)

I will answer. This is our shop steward and representative of our members. We have both W-2 and 1099 employees and independent contractors. We are some of the last truly independent contractors, because the individual carriage driver makes an individual deal with the carriage owner over what percentage of the trip the carriage driver keeps before they hand the remainder of the take for the day to the owner. So there are drivers who will not work with certain owners because they do not like the percentage. There are drivers who will not work with a certain carriage because they do not like the horse. There are carriage drivers who — I mean, when we go on vacation, we decide when we go. We are truly independent contractors. There are some W-2 employees that work for multi-carriage owners...

(03:19:25)

...that own multiple carriages, so they are more of a fleet — more than just the single owner-operator. And then we do have a lot of owner-operators in...

(03:19:37)

...the business. I have a follow-up question. Who pays dues to Local 100 — the drivers, medallion owners or owner-operators?

(03:19:48)

It is all of them. The drivers and the owners all pay union dues. The drivers, if you do not own a medallion, do not pay as high a dues structure every month, but we are all here together. Because you — the Council — are management. You are the ones that set the terms of our employment. You set the terms of when we get to go to work and under what conditions. You set how much we can charge. So you are management, and our union is here to represent us in our negotiations with you and the New York City Administrative Code. That is our contract.

(03:20:22)

Just two quick questions. How many paid carriage drivers does the union currently have? And you mentioned earlier that the average salary is $65,000 — is that a guaranteed salary or is it an hourly wage negotiated through a contract?

(03:20:39)

Well, again, like I just told you, we negotiate with the carriage owners. Do I get 40% of the ride and keep the tips? We always keep the tips. The drivers always get the tips, whoever is doing the driving — the owner or the driver. Is it 50%? Does the driver get to keep the first ride of the day? These are little small businesses. So it is not a wage job. Today, if we were not here, we would have been suspended because of the heat. So it is not a salary. This is not an hourly wage job. This is a way of life with horses and small businesses. In this case the workers own the means of production. I own a horse. I work for somebody who owns a carriage. I run his small family business. He has horses, he owns the medallion. There are stable owners here — they own the stables, but they are also workers. We own the horses, we own the carriages, we own the medallions, we own the stables, and that is who we are. Thank you.

(03:21:41)

Madam Chair, can I answer? CM Marte...

(03:21:46)

CM Marte, we have reached out to every Council member to visit the stables. Some of them did get a chance to, and that offer still stands if you are ready to come.

(03:21:57)

I will follow up on my email. Thank you.

(03:21:59)

Also, I would like to note — I think there was a discussion about there being a delay in the introduction of the Bill so that you could meet with us. But our union is also engaged in contract negotiations with our other members, who are working without a contract now. So there was a request to delay, but that Bill was introduced on schedule to coincide with other legislation in Philadelphia.

(03:22:25)

Okay, can I say one thing?

(03:22:27)

I am sorry — say one thing. Yes, thank you. Regarding the invitations, there have been a couple of Council...

(03:22:36)

Members that have visited -- CM Epstein did visit and we met and spent, I think probably close to an hour together. You seemed really intrigued, really interested. You were focused. I explained to you what I look for in a horse to make sure that they are held up. Do you remember this, sir? Whether they are healthy, whether they are alert. When a horse is standing in the back of the stall not facing you, they are stressed. When they are looking at you with their ears forward, when they are breathing normally, how we take heart rates -- you listened to everything. I showed you that there was manure and shavings on the stall during the time of day when we clean stalls. I said when this -- once you leave, this will all be swept. The stalls were clean. There was fresh water. There was hay in every stall. You listened. I think we agreed that -- and you made it very clear your stance, and I appreciate that, and we can agree to disagree. But at the same time I asked you to at least appreciate or understand what I was trying to get across to you, and you said you did. And then you crucified me the next day with your approach. You showed a picture of a healthy horse in a stall, saying that it is in jail. I was very naive walking into that because I do believe that information is information, and you failed me on that one. I think you failed the industry. You did not represent us properly. I will be interested in your...

(03:23:56)

...thoughts. You are going to go next anyway. Okay, I just wanted to make sure that it was not part of a condition that we are going to introduce the Bill if you did not meet with us. We reached out, I think more than a month before our intended introduction, and was it in line with what other cities have done, as you mentioned? Philadelphia has banned horse carriages from their city, and that just was a coincidence and we are willing to follow their lead now.

(03:24:25)

Okay. I do not want to have this back and forth here because we will be here all day, so...

(03:24:28)

You want to just take it outside of here? That is fine.

(03:24:33)

Council member, next. Thank you. Chair Schulman, CM Epstein did visit and I raised concerns there, and you say I crucified you because I disagreed with you. You know, we have a right to disagree about issues.

I want to -- again, like I said, I made an offer to visit and I did, and made a decision that it is an important Bill. I want to thank the Council member. And I just want to note that with the Speaker, we have talked a lot about the bikes and we had a hearing on the last mile Bill about the Amazon trucks on the street. We did a lot of things you are referencing, to talk about these issues. So I think the Council, in the short six months that the Speaker has been Speaker, we have taken a lot of these issues on. This is a hearing about getting feedback from people, and I mean, it is important that we hear what your perspective is. We are allowed to have perspectives based on the information we have.

And I think the characterization is deeply troubling -- the way you have characterized it as we are not willing to visit, we are crucifying you, we are not talking to the union. I met with the union and myself, and I talked to them about this issue. So I really take issue with the way you are all talking about us. I want to talk about the people who are working in this industry. So there is no union in effect, right?

(03:25:54)

They have no success -- who are you talking to? Whoever is the delegate? So, as I stated earlier, that is why we are here.

(03:26:08)

Speaking with you because, you know, right? You know this.

(03:26:13)

There is -- you said there is no medical insurance. When you say medical insurance provided by Local 100 -- yes. There is no medical insurance other than we have the ability to offer them dental and optical, because that is what is under our purview. Do they pay the dental and optical, or does it come through their dues? I do not have that information in front of me and I do not know how many people are in the dental and optical plan, and I quite honestly do not know why it would concern you.

(03:26:41)

But I just want to know the benefits that people have from being a member -- what I am doing right now is advocating for them. That is great.

(03:26:52)

Right. That is what unions are.

(03:26:56)

Okay, I appreciate -- they say the crowd does not like it. I am sorry, but this is what we do. So my father -- they do not...

(03:27:04)

...actually say what it is in a respectful way. My father...

(03:27:06)

...I was just clapping. Yeah, my father was the president of the union. I was a shop steward when I was in the union. I respect the unions. I am on a charity committee -- were you a part of it? I was a Legal Aid lawyer and Legal Services lawyer, Local 2320.

(03:27:24)

Okay. And you have benefits.

(03:27:25)

I did have benefits, and I worked full time. Did you pay for them? I pay through my -- wait, I want to stop this right now.

(03:27:32)

The panelists are not to question the Council members. Okay. Now listen -- full disclosure, he asked, so let me just finish this.

(03:27:41)

Let us just finish this so I can ask questions. Yes. So I want...

(03:27:43)

...to be clear -- how many members do you have in total? How many members do I have in total? I represent 150. How many of those are full time? Full time, part time -- I do not have that information...

(03:27:55)

...in front of me. I am just asking. If I represented one of them, I would be here today. So I really view your approach to be deeply troubling and adversarial. That is just my opinion.

(03:28:08)

I am just asking a question. You know, you can just say -- whether I am allowed to speak, you could answer the question any way you want. I am happy to...

(03:28:13)

...talk to you after the fact, but I am just explaining that this oppositional, adversarial approach is maybe not the ideal situation in a hearing. So 150 members -- you do not know how many are full and part time. And what are the dues that the people who are members pay versus the owners of the stables? So again, CM Epstein -- he had a finishing question.

(03:28:37)

So again, as I stated earlier, I do not have the treasury report in front of me. I do not see the relevance of how many people are paying or what they are paying or what they are doing. So you call it adversarial -- I do not see the point in anything you are saying at all. Chair, I really appreciate the time. Thank you very much.

(03:28:54)

Right. Thank you. CM Wang. Yeah, I think it is a fair question -- how many members are dues-paying carriage drivers? So I will answer it exactly as I answered before. I do not have the treasurer's report in front of me. We have 150 members, most of them are here today. If you would like them to stand up, we could do that. I do not see what the correlation is to this Bill. I do not see what they are paying or what their health benefit is. We are looking to preserve their jobs. That is what unions do.

(03:29:31)

So there is workforce transition training on this Bill? I have not seen any of it, so I cannot speak on that.

(03:29:40)

Right. Go ahead. But what is the workforce training for these -- as was shown earlier, these men and women are in the horse carriage industry. I do not know what type of industry is in workplace development. I have not been a part of it, but I do not think you can have anything close -- a hotel or casino worker is not going to be a job that they would adapt to. So unless you have something that I do not know about, feel free, because I do not know what it is. There has been no discussion with Local 100 about what that particular job is. Workforce development is a lovely word, but I do not know what it is.

(03:30:22)

My predecessor, Robert Holden, when he introduced the Bill, he asked for -- what hearings had he been asking for? Asked the question.

(03:30:29)

Okay, but the question is -- Bob Holden likes to put words in my mouth for some reason, and I do not know what his interests are. But he is, you know, the past Council member. But if you have a question I will answer it. There was never a hearing about this until today. Is that right? I remember -- I came to a hearing.

(03:30:53)

Well, all right, but move on. Relevance. Ask your questions, Council member.

(03:30:59)

Okay. Well, I have been involved in the City Council for several years and this is the first hearing that I know of in this room regarding this Bill. And I asked myself how come there was never a hearing on this either. The previous Speaker never wanted a hearing, or there are people out there who just do not even want to discuss this. I would ask Bob Holden.

(03:31:23)

Well, Council member, not arguing. Listen, we do not ask them a question that relates to -- do not ask them about the legislation.

(03:31:30)

Okay. All right, all right. No, I have no further questions. Thank you.

(03:31:34)

Thank you, CM Hanif.

(03:31:38)

Thank you. I would love to ask questions to the workers. Could you describe what process you follow when a horse is sick or your horse is sick, injured, showing signs of dehydration? And then who decides whether the horse continues to work or stops?

(03:32:00)

I have been a commercial carriage driver for 20 years. What you just described -- the process is I am with my horse every day. Okay, so I know what they are normally like. If there is anything wrong, I stop what I am doing and I call Dr. Cooke. So essentially it is up to...

(03:32:24)

...the driver. Of course it is -- we know our horse best. Obviously if somebody said something to me...

(03:32:30)

...one of my co-workers, the stable man who noticed something different overnight, or if it was somebody on the street who said hey, what is going on with this -- but aside from the driver knowing their horse, there is not a set standardized process. But I want to -- you asking that, I do not want to not answer your question.

(03:32:49)

Dehydration -- okay, could you respond to my next question please. What policies are in place to ensure a horse is removed from service when there are concerns about its health? And I know Dr. Cooke was mentioned here. If you want to chime in.

(03:33:08)

Yes. So horses are creatures of habit. They do things all the time, meaning if they normally pass five piles of manure overnight, there are usually five piles every morning. If they are depressed, you can see it -- if their heads are low, their ears are back, they can look not okay, and that is a signal. Skirting -- that is a signal. Those are definitely all the signals. Not working -- for life-threatening problems, with colic or abdominal pain being the main one, they are very vocal. They are pawing at the ground. There is violence.

(03:33:41)

They are getting up, lying down, standing -- in those moments I am usually...

(03:33:51)

...receiving a telephone call. We have a protocol in place because I am not there at all times. There are medicines that I have directed them to give in that event. My rule -- and this has been implemented and the vast majority of people have followed it -- is that if they do not respond to that medicine, the horse is to be trailered to my hospital, because it is silly for me to drive all the way down and then say we have a problem and then have the horse. So the horses come to my hospital and we evaluate them there.

Have there been times when a horse was sick, was depressed, having physical issues and continued to work? Not to my knowledge, but...

(03:34:35)

...for however many horses we have -- 400, whatever that is -- it has probably happened, but it cannot continue. I mean, they may have started to work like that, maybe not to my knowledge, but...

(03:34:48)

...if they did, they could not sustain a day. And ultimately it would come to our knowledge. I will say this -- let us take a bad apple moment. Let us say for a second -- and this has not happened in the last year or two, but early on, and I have been there for years -- in the event that I recognize there is a problem, and this has barely happened, if the person says "Dr. Cooke, you do not know what you are doing, I know my horse, the horse is fine, I am going to work," and I disagree with that, my only authority -- and I have used it a few times -- is to call the Department of Health. And I have called the Department of Health and said I believe this is a problem. It is up to the Department at that point, and in those events they have suspended the horse until we can evaluate the horse. I hope that answers your question.

(03:35:38)

Yeah, that is it. But I just want to say one comment -- your responses still demonstrate that there is not a standardized process, and having to call you and rely on...

(03:35:53)

...the owner -- what would be a standardized process? If my 10-year-old son had a bellyache, the process is you have to call for help, recognize a problem. Well, schools have a -- I will move on.

(03:36:09)

Let us not do the back and forth here. Okay, CM Brewer.

(03:36:15)

Thank you very much. I do believe I have been to the stables years ago and I do believe that the people who are with their horse do care about the horses. Let me be clear on that. The issue for me is this -- I believe this is going to stop this industry. What steps -- you know, I am just being realistic here. So my question to the union or anybody else is: earlier we heard from one of the speakers that there is some interest from the owners in getting out of the business. That was surprising to me. So my question to you is: what circumstances -- even though I know you are not interested in getting out of the business -- what circumstances would you feel could be of assistance to your members if in fact this happens? I know it is a hard question, but that is my question.

(03:36:58)

On a couple of occasions you have referenced big real estate here, and this is something that really rubs me and my other owners the wrong way. Myself and 14 other people own the stable on 52nd Street. All of us are carriage medallion owners, and the other two stables are owned by people who hold carriage medallions. We bought our land because we wanted it and we needed it, and we did not buy it to sell it. And that is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way nowadays, especially since the whole rezoning took place. Our mission is not to give up our land ever, and I do not know how many times I have heard about big real estate -- we are not interested in big real estate. We are interested in providing carriage rides in Central Park, and we are not interested in being fobbed off with some stories, because the day you sell your land is the day you are finished.

(03:37:55)

I heard that, but there was a family apparently that is interested -- that we heard -- a family that is interested. With the old stable, eight years ago -- it was 10 years ago that they sold it? Yes. Okay.

(03:38:07)

Thank you. CM Wilson, thank you. I have...

(03:38:12)

...a question about procedures in the park. We heard from testimony earlier -- and I guess this is for the drivers -- we heard testimony earlier that it is very common for drivers to leave the carriage, I think it was said, for photographs, and that that is advertised, and that there are sections in the park where horses are often left. I am just curious about your response to that and if that is routine, in perhaps a way that you know.

(03:38:38)

To step away in a practical way of managing the carriages and the business of the party -- so I have worked as a commercial carriage driver for over 20 years and there are different rules and regulations in different cities. So here in New York, the law is that a horse must be attended or tethered at all times. We can tie our horses to the lamp post and infrastructure. Attended, you know -- we have people that are right there. When this accident took place, my understanding from the people that are investigating it -- it is still an ongoing investigation into this accident as to what spooked the horse. My understanding is that the driver, as he was getting on the carriage, had the lines in his hands. When I worked in Philadelphia, the law was not attended or tethered -- it was that you could not ever tether and that you had to maintain control of your horse's head, which was actually defined. So you know, we have been a very, very safe industry. You can look at our guys doing this business back for decades and decades and decades. When we are out on Central Park South, basically one of the things that the Health Department did not mention in the discussion of our training process is that we have an apprenticeship. So...

(03:39:59)

...we learned from other carriage drivers how it is done, and that is what -- this is how our business has been safe and handed down from generation to generation. Given that we do not know what spooked the horse, and given that there is a completely new thing in Central Park with all these electric vehicles whining and screaming and going at high rates of speed, we have had to change what we do because the park is different. So I have been out there every single day, literally reminding people to hold their horses and to change the way that they are used to attending their horses and being nearby. Adena was up here testifying earlier about unattended horses -- she has come by taking pictures, and a lot of times she is taking pictures as she is trying to take a picture of the horse, not of us, and people do not want to be in her social media. How often is a horse spooked?

(03:41:01)

Very, very rarely. Horses are creatures of habit. They do not speak because they are prey animals. A horse's main concern in life is not to be eaten by a mountain lion, and you cannot spook at everything that moves. I mean, spooking as a defense when it does not run away... so it happens very rarely, because our horses get used to what they experience in the City — the taxis and the buses and the construction equipment. All that might as well be rocks and trees and shrubs. It is just a part of their environment. So they can be on the lookout. I guess what I am struggling with is, we do not know what

(03:41:36)

spooks them. No matter what... you know what, CM, you have to wrap it up.

(03:41:42)

So it is kind of what I am... we have an animal that we do know, and because they are creatures of habit, as Dr. Cooke said, we are with them all the time. We know them. Like my horse Sherman does not like off-leash dogs, particularly medium-sized light-colored ones. He notices them. He was obviously chased before I bought him when he was on some Amish farm up in the Finger Lakes. He does not like little... really thinks. Now some horses do not like garbage trucks and some walk right past them. It is not that we do not know. But in this particular instance, in this particular accident, we have no idea. That is what is unusual about it, because as horse people, we cannot... this one is a stumper for us. So that is why it is still under investigation. We are horse people. All the time, ask the mounted cops what spooks their horses. They know their horses just as well as we know ours.

(03:42:36)

All right, thank you. I want to thank this panel. I think I have something to add to CM Wilson's question. Now listen, you had your time and I do not think it would be... I am just telling you this panel is dismissed.

(03:42:54)

I am just trying to answer. That is quite all right. I will answer it. You can answer it with him. He is right next to you.

(03:43:00)

Thank you all very much. Thank you. For the next panel, we are going to do a hybrid. There is a doctor who was supposed to be on earlier. We had some technical issues, so we are going to see if he is still available. Dr. Craig... Dr. Craig Kulikovsky? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes. Oh, amazing. All right, so why do we not just go ahead and testify, and then we will call the other parts of the panel after. Okay.

(03:43:47)

Okay, great. Thank you. I would like to thank the City Council for considering the welfare and safety of New York City's carriage horses. My name is Dr. Craig Kulikovsky. I am a New Yorker with 30 years of experience and I have been a horseman for more than 40 years. Before I was a veterinarian, I competed

(03:44:07)

internationally as an equestrian in several countries and on multiple continents. I believe that horses, like humans, can work for a living. But when humans employ horses for entertainment or profit, we assume a serious responsibility to protect their health and welfare. In many equine industries, including racing and competitive sport, working horses undergo consistent, thorough and independent veterinary examinations. These evaluations include observing the horse at the trot to identify lameness, along with blood testing for painkillers, sedatives, stimulants and other medications that could mask an underlying disease or lameness.

When I was commissioned by the Department of Health to conduct an examination of 16 carriage horses last year, the owners did not comply with two critical components of typical examinations: blood testing and the complete lameness evaluation. In fact, two owners did not even show up to present their horses for examination. In spite of the refusal to comply fully, the truncated exams that I did conduct revealed some troubling concerns for me, including widespread old scars on horses' backs from ill-fitting gear, insufficient dental care and lameness that could be visible even at the walk.

While these clinical findings gave me concerns, it was the lack of natural access to pasture that was my biggest concern. A horse that has consistent access to natural pasture is not only going to be a healthier horse, but most likely less apt to frantically grab for unnatural, toxic forage in Central Park, which may have contributed to at least one recent horse death in the City. Not having access to consistent pasture also means these horses spend the majority of their days indoors, inside horse stalls. Please

(03:45:56)

bear in mind... can you please summarize? You can always submit testimony. We have another 10 hours of testimony. I just want people to know, based on who signed up, we have to keep it short.

(03:46:13)

Done in just a second. Okay. Please bear in mind that a typical 12-foot by 12-foot horse stall for a thousand-pound horse would be similar to a 200-pound human living in a five-foot by six-foot closet for the majority of the day. It is not hard to imagine how this type of daily confinement might lead to unpredictable and extremely dangerous actions by a thousand-pound animal when it finally gets outside of its confinement. The concern is not only that one cannot evaluate the horse's welfare without full cooperation from owners, but how do we provide adequate relief from prolonged confinement and the dangers associated with cooped-up and pent-up horses. Thank you for your consideration.

(03:46:48)

Thank you. Thank you so much. All right, now we are going to do the... Roger Mosier, I think. David Saltonstall. Sorry, I probably butchered that a little. Dr. Natalie Juris, folks here? Yes. Laura Spellman. Curtis Sliwa and Danielle Chin. Okay. I just want to reiterate to everyone, you have two minutes, because I am going to start cutting people off and cutting the mics off. We have a lot of testimony. You could submit it at dot.gov and all of it is going to be looked at and taken into account. So when the buzzer goes off, just summarize and then we will go on. Okay, who is going first?

(03:48:07)

My name is David Saltonstall and I am Vice President for Government Relations and Policy at the Central Park Conservancy, the nonprofit that manages the park on behalf of the City. I am joined by Roger Mosier, the Conservancy's Chief of Park Operations.

(03:48:24)

The Conservancy supports the Roman Law and we urge the Council to pass it without delay. We do not take this position lightly. Over the past 13 months, Central Park has seen eight separate horse-related incidents: runaway carriages, collisions, injured drivers and a horse that collapsed and died in front of stunned parkgoers last month. That pattern ended in tragedy. An 18-year-old named Roman, visiting with his family from India, was killed when a horse bolted near Cherry Hill. It was a devastating loss and our hearts go out to this family, who have spoken so eloquently here today.

Public safety is the Conservancy's paramount concern. Horse-drawn carriages are simply incompatible with a modern, crowded park used by millions of visitors a year. This has become painfully clear over the last 13 months, during which there have been eight frightening incidents, sadly causing the death of Roman. The park is not built for the volume of people we welcome every day to share safely with half-ton animals whose natural instinct is to bolt when spooked. No amount of regulation and no single piece of hardware can correct for an animal's basic instincts.

The public agrees. A poll the Conservancy commissioned two weeks ago found that 68% of New Yorkers support ending City licensing of horse-drawn carriages in the park, support that holds across every borough, every demographic and political affiliation. Keeping New Yorkers safe does not and must not come at the expense of those affected. We strongly support the provision of real jobs and workforce development services for the drivers and stable workers who will be displaced, as well as good homes for the horses. We would not be the first to do so.

(03:50:17)

London, Salt Lake City, Philadelphia already have shown how to end this practice responsibly, and it is time for New York City to join them. Who is next?

(03:50:31)

Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Natalie Juris and I am an equine veterinarian. My role is to evaluate equine health and soundness, diagnose disease and injury and provide recommendations that prioritize both equine welfare and public safety. I appreciate the opportunity to offer a veterinary perspective on this issue.

One of the most fundamental principles of medicine is that horses are prey animals. Even healthy, highly trained horses retain an innate flight response, a biological survival mechanism that cannot be eliminated through training, experience or routine veterinary care. As veterinarians, we can determine whether a horse is medically fit for work at the time of an examination, but we cannot predict or guarantee that a horse will respond to unexpected stimuli in a complex and rapidly changing environment.

As veterinarians, we also recognize that animal welfare extends beyond the absence of disease or lameness. Welfare includes an animal's physical health, behavioral needs and its ability to cope with the environment in which it lives and works. A veterinary examination is a snapshot in time. It tells us whether a horse appears clinically fit on the date it is evaluated, but it cannot predict every future medical condition or behavioral response.

In my professional opinion, New York City's dense traffic, continuous noise, construction, emergency vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists and other unpredictable environmental stimuli create an inherently challenging and stressful situation for horses. Appropriate veterinary care, thoughtful training and responsible management are all essential for protecting horse welfare, but they cannot eliminate the biological realities of the equine species or the inherent risks associated with asking prey animals to work in one of the world's most complex urban environments. Veterinary medicine can help manage these risks, but it cannot eliminate them. Thank you for your time and consideration.

(03:52:18)

Thank you very much. Next. Go ahead, Curtis. Thank you

(03:52:23)

very much. Curtis Sliwa, animal welfare activist, ran for mayor on the first-ever animal welfare line. Animals are people and it is the responsibility of you elected officials to protect the rights of all animals. This family that came from India to celebrate the graduation of

(03:52:47)

their 18-year-old son — if they had gone to Bombay, now called Mumbai, they would no longer have been able to take a horse-drawn carriage that dated back to Queen Victoria, because the Bombay High Court ruled it to be a barbaric act. In city after city around the world, first-world and third-world cities — and we should be ashamed of ourselves that they have led in banning this barbaric behavior — most times replacing them with electric carriages so that the carriage drivers can continue to have an income.

(03:53:28)

We are not even considering that here. We are saying, oh, we need to keep the tradition. Let me tell you about tradition. At the Bronx Zoo, they always had elephants. Happy the elephant was not all that happy. Happy died and the Bronx Zoo decided to send Patty, the remaining elephant, to an elephant sanctuary, and they will have elephants no more, even though they will lose money, because they recognized, finally, after many of us animal welfare activists pounded the door, that enough is enough.

We know why this continues to be a problem here. It is the result of the former president of the union, the bully John Samuelsson, who has threatened to sue anyone who stands in his way. The state senator who spoke here... former Mayor Eric Adams... do you know of any issue that ever brought mayoral candidates together in this special election? Eric Adams, Andrew Cuomo, Zohran Mamdani, Mia Curtis... if you are going to take the money from Local 100, the blood money, you are not humanitarians.

(03:54:47)

Stop. If people are going to act out, we are going to have people removed. I am telling you now. It is a very tough act to follow. Danielle, go ahead. You have

(03:55:07)

two minutes. Council Members, thank you for the opportunity to testify. To the Mob family, I am so sorry for your loss. I am also so sorry for all of those who claim to mourn your loss but do not even take the time to pronounce your name correctly.

My name is Danielle. I am a native New Yorker and a longtime Hell's Kitchen and Upper West Side resident. When previously living on 57th and Tenth, I watched those horses make the trek to Central Park, watched them be spooked by cars honking, bikes cutting them off and overall just not in a comfortable state. Now living near the Museum of Natural History, I walk my two dogs in the park daily, multiple times a day. In the last 13 months there have been eight serious incidents that I have firsthand witnessed, two of them. On September 1, the horse Samson was spooked by loud sounds and myself and my dogs were among the pedestrians that needed to jump out of the way to not get trampled. Had my instinct not been quick enough, I would have been trampled. My heart is dropping just thinking about that experience.

I then watched Samson the horse smash into a stop sign. On June 9, I was walking with my dogs and saw the horse Denise collapse. While there is something awful about witnessing an animal dying, there is nothing more horrible than watching two of my animals react to another animal dying in front of them. I am here today because of my interviews with various media outlets, including on September 1 and on June 9, where I stated that it was only a matter of time until that stop sign was a human or a child. I invite you to look up that footage and see me saying that with fear in my eyes of what might happen. On June 16, I was leaving the park when friends had texted me about the incident and the critical condition of Roman.

I am also here because as a dog owner, if my animal is hurt, my instinct is to react. In both of those incidents — I know I am short on time, but I think it is important to express — my instinct as an animal owner and someone who genuinely cares for animals is to react to them in danger. While I am not speaking to all horse carriage drivers, I am speaking to those two in front of me that I saw. I saw them have complete apathy for the situation and then, as soon as the news cameras came on, have a staged performance of care.

(03:57:21)

Okay, if you could wrap up, I will wrap up.

(03:57:23)

Those in opposition might say it was one incident in decades of the industry and it just needs to be regulated. My perspective is that you cannot regulate instinct. It was instinct for Roman to try to protect his mother. It was instinct for the horse to bolt. If this legislation is not passed, it is only a matter of time before another human will lose their life. Thank you.

(03:57:47)

Thank you. To the Mob family, I am so very sorry for your loss.

(03:57:51)

My name is Laura Spellman. I am a founder of the Coalition for Responsible Carriage Horse Retirement and I am here to ask you to vote yes on the Roman Law. I am here as a New Yorker. I was born and raised here. Both sides of my family have lived here since the 1800s. My great-grandfather served as mounted police in the park in the 1920s. Mounted police serve a vital public function. Horse-drawn carriages do not.

As an equine specialist, I work with international organizations working with humans and horses. I serve on the Humane Society Large Animal Response Teams. I built and currently run an equine program for the Department of Defense to work with the Navy, the Marines and Wounded Warriors. I work with the VA, the prison system, law enforcement, children with developmental disabilities and the general public. In the last five years I have worked with over 220 horses in my program and I hold a perfect safety record because I put safety first. That means the safety of humans and the horses.

I know that the retirement plan is a central concern here and it can be done. I have done it before. I have worked on a large-scale rescue effort involving over 160 horses, everyone evaluated, treated and placed. I know from direct experience that a coordinated retirement of this very size can be done.

Here is the science as to why they should be retired. A horse's vision spans nearly 340 degrees around its body, but it has blind spots directly in front and behind, so traffic reads as an unseen threat. Its eyes adjust to light far slower than ours, so a shift from sun to shadow or a camera flash causes real disorientation, not disobedience. Their hearing can trigger a full flight response from a siren or a backfire in under a second, faster than any driver can react. Small dogs and wheeled things are allowed in the park and they always will be. This is not a training failure. More training will not fix it. It is biology doing what millions of years of evolution designed it to do, in an environment that will never stop asking it to do the opposite. This is why accidents will not stop. Thank

(03:59:53)

you. Thank you very much. I have a couple of questions for the Conservancy. How much money annually does the Conservancy spend on repairs and maintenance directly related to wear and tear caused by the horse carriages?

(04:00:08)

Hi. Thanks for the question. Roger Mosey, Chief of Park Operations for the Conservancy. There is not an annual figure. It really depends on the projects that we might pursue from time to time. We find that the surfaces that the horses walk on are extremely deteriorated. For example, Cherry Hill has a loop around the fountain there, and we need to replace that asphalt due to horse damage, and that project is probably $500,000.

(04:00:37)

How much money does the Conservancy spend on sanitation related to horse waste?

(04:00:42)

We do not spend money on that. We do not attempt to clean up after the horses. We do have a little bit of inefficiency related to working around the horses on our own trash removal, but we do not clean up after

(04:00:56)

the horses. Has the Conservancy seen an increase in the number of

(04:00:59)

people visiting the park? Yes.

(04:01:07)

Do you have... Thank you for the question. You know, it is very hard to know. Our general estimate is that we get 42 million visitors a year. I think we saw a dramatic increase in general after cars were banned from the park in 2019, and also during the pandemic, many people came to the park because it was the only place to go, and I think they have continued those patterns since that time. So we really have seen a dramatic increase in the last five or six years.

(04:01:34)

Do you think the banning of horse carriages would affect the number of visitors? I do

(04:01:39)

not. I know that there are a certain percentage of tourists who do avail themselves of horse carriages, but I do not think those 42 million people are coming to the park just to take a horse carriage ride. Those are my questions.

(04:01:51)

I am going to ask the Council member... and the person to David's left, what is your name, sir? Roger Moser.

(04:02:06)

Okay. And so what is your title? Chief of Park Operations for the Conservancy. Chief of Park Operations. So it was you that authorized the planting of the Japanese yews all over the park?

(04:02:18)

The yews are a ubiquitous ornamental shrub in North America, but it was planted... native to the Northeast. Yes, it was

(04:02:28)

planted, right? But they are toxic to every animal that is native to the park, or any animal that goes through the park, or migrates through it, or somebody walking in the door. You understand this.

(04:02:42)

Right. And there are

(04:02:44)

a number of plants in any park that... Yeah, but you went

(04:02:48)

out of your way to plant these for aesthetics, knowing that animals could die. The yew is essentially original to the park. We have planting plans from the 1800s that show that it was present. It has been regularly planted throughout the twentieth century, at a time when horses were much more ubiquitous in the park, and everyone has lived together for that period of time. And as

(04:03:14)

far as toxicity, you have no idea how many animals have been killed by them. You do not know anything. All right. Enough. I am done. I am going to go to David now.

(04:03:28)

So you talked about animal habits and horse habits and features and how they react. Do you know

(04:03:39)

anything about horses? I am not a veterinarian. That is not why I am here. I think you have

(04:03:45)

heard abundant testimony from experts today. But you talked about bolting. Do you know what kind of horses the industry uses? Do you know the difference between a hot blood and a cold blood? I am not a veterinarian.

Well, let me tell you something. The industry uses what we call draft horses, or cold bloods, and these horses are bred to pull a plow all day long. The amount of work that they have to do in order to pull a carriage is nothing compared to what they have to do if they were plowing a field. The industry uses these horses because they are much less likely to spook, because that is their temperament. A saddle horse is a hot blood. They will spook at anything. In between, like a combination, would be a warm blood, which could also be a saddle horse and could pull a little wagon. A warm blood would be fine for the work that they have to do, but they prefer to use the cold blood because it is a much more stable temperament.

So for you to be commenting on something that you know nothing about, not to mention the fact that you have got hundreds and hundreds of unlicensed, illegal pedicabs, and people have died in pedicabs, but now you are coming down on the horse carriage industry... I think it is disgraceful, both of you.

Thank you. Stop. No clapping. We have said this before. All right, we are done with the panel. Thank you. Appreciate it. Next panel. Alexis Lawson, Pete Donahue, Alexander Kemp, David Koch, Mindy... and Bill, who is not going to be here later. Yeah. All right. Before this panel starts, I want to stress to everyone there needs to be decorum here, because I am telling you, and I have said it once, I am going to have people removed and I will do it. So just, you know, it is a very fraught, emotional issue. We are trying to hear everybody out, but people have to maintain decorum here. All right. So if you want to stay in the room and listen to everything that is going on, please do that. Thank you. Who is going

(04:06:34)

first here? Okay. Good afternoon. My name is Alexander Kemp. I am the Administrative Vice President for Local 100. I appreciate you taking the time to hear the concerns of the local and the union, and the family. I just want to state for the record, to the family, that I am a father. I have an 11-year-old daughter. I have a 17-year-old son, and one of my biggest fears in life is ever finding out that my son or my daughter might not be coming home. So for the sake of my condolences, my heartfelt condolences to the family, I am very, very sorry that this has become your reality and that this tragic event is something you will spend the rest of your life reliving.

I also want to say for the record that an equal tragedy is that this is being used to weaponize the removal of the property of business owners who have given everything they have to try to live out the American dream. Because of a tragedy, those who are bloodthirsty for this industry have exploited it and absolutely used this disgusting experience to make it their framework to eliminate an industry that has been around for over 100 years.

The truth is that this is one of the safest mechanisms of tourism on the planet. The truth is that although, unfortunately, we have lost a life, we do not take that consequence and throw the baby out with the bathwater. We look for ways to make it safer so that it never happens again. We can cite the Triangle fire and how it modified the whole industry. We can speak to the fact that when planes crash, we look for ways to make them safer. In transportation, in buses and trains, we have 400 to 500 members and employees of the Transit Authority getting assaulted every year. I just heard a stat that from 1980 up until now there have been 98 instances. The truth is, everyday transit workers are getting assaulted, and I do not see any caucus about the safety of the people that you are tasked with protecting.

So I would just demand that prior to you making a decision on this industry, you look at all of the responsibilities that you have to uphold. Nobody should be making decisions over one incident that is a tragedy that I believe we can ultimately learn from and make the industry safer. Thank you.

(04:09:08)

Thank you. Who is next? Please keep it to two minutes. Press the button. Let me clear it with

(04:09:16)

the staffer. I am going to read a statement from International President John Sanderson, and I want to give my testimony, which was approved by the Council staff. Just so you know, this is from the testimony of International President John Sanderson. This hearing is based on politics, not on the pursuit of animal welfare or public safety. Let us start with the prime sponsor, Councilman Marte. At a hearing on Rikers last year, Marte said this about horses giving carriage rides: "If it was a human pushing a horse carriage, we would call that inhumane. If it was any other living animal, whether it is a dog or a cat pushing a carriage, we would call that inhumane. Why do we have to put horses at a different level?" This is one of the most unintelligent comments ever uttered by a City Council member. A 1,600-pound horse is not comparable, Councilman, to a Chihuahua, a

(04:10:19)

cocker spaniel or a Siamese cat. But that is the mindset of the animal rights fundamentalists that this Council Speaker and Council are following. Speaker Menin knows this is not an issue of safety in the park. If safety in the park was a real concern, she would hold a hearing on a bill which 20 members signed onto when it was introduced, that would prohibit e-bikes and motor scooters in Central Park. Nearly 70 people, including pedestrians, were injured in Central Park in accidents involving bicyclists, bike riders and e-scooters in the last five years. This is absolutely a political issue. Speaker Menin and the Council members here want to end the noise from the animal rights fundamentalists and the real estate backers, the constant phone calls, the emails, the social media posts, and the death threats to Council members who opposed the Bill. Ironically, they are wrong. Maybe they think that most New Yorkers want to get rid of the horse carriages. There are polls that show strong support for protecting workers, these immigrant workforces, and the horses. You need to wrap it up.

(04:11:32)

Please. Because you can

(04:11:33)

submit that. Yeah, I will wrap up. I am in the last two sentences. This Bill strips blue-collar workers of their jobs and future income. It offers nothing in return, just a promise of workforce development and words from the Speaker about potential future jobs, with no mention of compensation to medallion owners who paid, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars for the right. NAFTA has come to Central Park at best. This Bill is half-baked, exposing workers and, ironically, horses to harm. This is my testimony. Thank you. Who is next? I am next. You are next. I am sorry. Thank you. Thank you.

(04:12:10)

Just seven months ago, this same committee, the Health Committee, rejected this exact same Bill, then called... You rejected the claims that the carriage horses are being mistreated. You rejected claims that the horses are not receiving proper care.

(04:12:29)

Can I get your attention?

(04:12:30)

Okay. You rejected claims that the horses are not receiving proper care. You rejected claims that the horses do not have suitable housing. You rejected claims that it is somehow cruel for a 1,600-pound draft horse to propel a carriage with giant wheels. You have voted against advancing this very same Bill. So what changed?

For the first time in 167 years of carriage rides being a popular feature of Central Park, a passenger fatality occurred. One fatality in 167 years. Carriage rides are the most safe mode of travel in New York City. The fatal accident involving the Romance family was an absolute tragedy, no question. Was it more tragic than the death of bicyclist Salvador Garcia, who was killed in a bicycle accident in the park last year? Was it more tragic than the death of bicyclist Charles Chesborough, who was killed in a bicycle accident in 2019? Is it more tragic than the death of 28 people killed in accidents involving two-wheeled motor vehicles in New York City in the first six months of this year? No.

Are you considering banning walking, biking, scooters, taxicabs, buses or the subway? Of course not, because that defies all logic and common sense. So does banning carriage horses. The City can address any safety concerns it has by doing what it is supposed to do: govern and regulate. The lawyer for the Romance family earlier said it is not the workers, it is not the union, it is the City that did not enforce. One of the animal rights activists said the City has done zero enforcement, and the only thing that this Council can come up with is banning.

(04:14:17)

That is not government. That is not the government that anybody in this City wants. The City can address safety concerns by holding a hearing on CM Gennaro's Bill. In all fairness to the immigrant drivers, the carriage owners and the horses themselves, the City should shelve this ban. Govern, do not cancel. That is what voters want, not a knee-jerk reaction to an unprecedented tragedy, and there are polls to back that up. Thank you.

(04:14:44)

Thank you very much. Who is next? Oh, you will go. Okay, go ahead. Is the mike on? Yes.

(04:14:56)

I am Joshua Saville, horse carriage driver. The public has been actively deceived, and we as the industry involved and our legislators have a responsibility and a duty to expose that deception. We are here because of animal liberation extremists whose eventual goal is the extinction of not just all working, but all domestic animals, period. Their movement defines captivity as abuse. So no change we make could ever be enough, because domestic animals are an abomination to them. We are here because Steve Silk is a billionaire. You might say, well, that proves his heart is true, because what is he doing it for if not the money? But billionaires do not care about money. If it was about needing money,

(04:15:43)

they would probably stop at a hundred million and retire.

(04:15:47)

You have got to have a certain personality to go all the way to a billion. How

(04:15:48)

can you get to 200 million and say, okay, now I can finally write that play I never had time for? But they keep going, because it is not about money. Because if you are a billionaire, dollars are not the game. The game is only enjoyable when you are on the field playing it, crushing your opponent.

(04:16:07)

The problem is your opponent is us, and it is a game we never signed up for. And you are winning. The prize is our lives. You are winning. The prize is our

(04:16:16)

children. He innocently thinks he can control these people, but they will come for his horses too, if not now, soon or later, this generation or the next. The mounted unit, the park rangers, the service dogs, the bodega cats. They could be finding horses that need their help, but they focus all their attention on the 68 best-kept and most visible horses in the country, because the visibility is the point. A symbolic victory in their long march toward extinction.

These horses get the perfect ratio of exercise, rest and human attention. They are getting the best life of any horse in America. Everybody loves doing what they are born for. Birds love flying. Horses love pulling. I love running my mouth. There was a dog that escaped in the news. They found him herding sheep for three days, never having seen a sheep in his life. You see a poodle on a couch watching TV and a hunting dog covered in rain and dripping with mud, and you think you know which one is living the good life. But a poodle is a hunting dog. And I promise you the happy dog is the muddy one. Thank you.

(04:17:11)

Very much. Who is next?

(04:17:14)

I will. Okay. My name is Mindy. I am a native New Yorker, but I now live on a farm in Virginia. I want to share a success story of the carriages. I am not one of the carriage drivers.

(04:17:28)

My career is in animal health, but I have been a lifelong horsewoman. I was a horse-crazy kid. My parents did not own horses, but my grandmother indulged me. She was a buyer for one of the department stores in Manhattan. She said, "You need to come to Central Park with me. I need to show you something that you will never believe." We went on the carriage ride, and I was besotted. I just loved it. It was fantastic. I read about the history of the park and

(04:17:57)

the carriages and the original designers of the park. It was meant for three specific carriage paths, horse trails and pedestrians. When I am looking at that recent video, although horrific, that boy died and I let him rest in peace, I am looking at that video wondering what the heck happened to the carriage paths. You have every mode of transportation on there. As a horsewoman, I would never allow my child, because she has

(04:18:24)

inherited my love for horses, to be on a horse with other modes of transportation. You have bikes, you have e-bikes, you have rollerbladers, you have everything. Those paths were made specifically for the

(04:18:40)

carriage horses. And I am sorry, but when I hear that word, "antiquity"... I am still riding horses. Just because it is not the 1800s and we do not use horses for transportation does not mean people like me, who have a passion for riding and being on a horse, should be targeted. Are you going to come after me next? My horses? Because you say, "Oh, get off, you are hurting that horse." This is my fear with PETA involved. You know their agenda is to end any equine discipline. I am here to tell you, you cannot allow the precedent to be set here. I ask you to reconsider this and listen to the carriage drivers and come up with solutions, and let the horses have those carriage paths back. Thank you for your time.

(04:19:32)

Thank you. Will

(04:19:36)

Hi. My name is Dave Cook. I have been a carriage driver since 1982 and yes, the correct characterization is long in the tooth. This is my third, possibly fourth appearance before this board and the issues are almost always the same. The real estate that the carriages hold is extraordinarily valuable and the amount of effort to obtain that real estate knows no bounds, ethically or morally.

Precisely what is going on today, as in 40 years ago, is a walk down to 38th Street starting at Tenth Avenue. You walk west towards the Javits Center. You are going to come upon the Manhattan Hotel, 10 to 12 stories. It looks like 1970s architecture to me, boarded up, ready for demolition. Directly across the street, what was probably originally built as a livery some hundred-odd years ago, the last hundred years it has been doing automotive repair, boarded up, ready for demolition. Walk down the street another hundred yards. Another building that was probably originally built for livery, has been doing automotive repair, boarded up, set for demolition.

You look to the left and there are our stables on 38th Street. You walk a few more steps and you will see the other stables, identical architecture, directly behind ours at 37th Street. But you continue your gaze to the left and there is the hood ornament of Hudson Yards. The Vessel, two blocks, right out there. There is no more precise definition of what is going on with the carriages.

One of my great loves of living in New York City is that the level of critical thinking here is high. You do not take the testimony of... what do they call them? Night class? They are fully funded by the real estate industry. That is not testimony, that is propaganda. All right. Thank you. Alexis.

(04:21:49)

Is it? Oh, the panel is not done yet. All right.

(04:21:56)

Hey, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the Council. My name is Alexis Lawson. I am a Queens native from South Jamaica and I am asking you to oppose Int 0943-2026. Being a young girl from the South Side, I never had the opportunity to see the animals I was so obsessed with until the day I was allowed to take a carriage ride, and it set my path in stone. I used to see images of animal abuse when I was a little girl. You know, I love animals and I believed what I saw. Then I learned that animal welfare should never be about whether an animal has a job or not, but rather about how the animal's physical and mental needs are being met.

I transitioned to carriage driving in 2021, leaving an office job to follow my passion. It was my very first carriage horse, Midnight, who would be my saving grace because I lost my mom at the beginning of my career. She pulled me from my depression. Nothing could replace her as my therapist and friend. As such, I cannot imagine being ripped away from working beside my heart horse. Just the thought of not being able to work beside my horses is a soul-crushing one. No one sees the dedication and love we share. They look for a reason to take her job and callously claim I do not love her. Animal welfare and animal rights are two incredibly different topics.

At this time I would also like to extend my heartfelt condolences to the family of Roman. The tragic passing of this young man was and still is felt deeply by our entire industry, which is why we are asking to move forward instead with Int 0937-2026, because to take advantage of a family's loss for political gain is abhorrent. In light of that, we are requesting stronger driver training and safety in his honor. He came here to take a carriage ride, as millions have done for over a hundred years. Carriage horses are woven into the fabric of New York City's identity. How dare you tell them they do not belong. How can you claim to love horses but then want to destroy their careers, take food from their mouths, from their families and their owners who love them. I strongly urge the Council to oppose Int 0943-2026 and instead I ask you all to focus on and support Int 0937-2026, which is working to improve the industry as a whole. Thank you.

(04:24:03)

Thank you very much. CM Gennaro has a question for this panel. Thank you, Madam Chair.

(04:24:09)

Yeah, I was really going to speak to Kemp and Donna. But the last witness... I do not know your name. You had very, very compelling testimony. I wish to be associated with your good remarks and I thank you for being a dedicated horsewoman who has found her niche in life and wants nothing more than to carry on her future in this great industry.

Now we are going to get into the weeds here. As we saw in the Times, the day before the hearing, the Speaker comes out and says, "I know what we are going to do, we are going to do this with the workers, this with the horses, this with the stables. I have got it all figured out. This is done." So what this hearing unfortunately is, is a pageant. The Speaker has already decided, unilaterally, that this is happening. And he has got the real estate money behind all of this stuff and I do not know what is going on. I just do not like the policy. I do not like the way all this is playing out.

So if this is a power game, now this has to be up to T.W. to use all of his muscle to reach out to immigrant rights organizations. I do not see them here. It must be that the carriage drivers are not their kinds of immigrants, and that is a real shame. Jim, do you have a question? Yeah, and so I just want to ask T.W.: what mechanisms are you going to bring to bear to call for at least a hearing on my bill so that we can have an alternative to shutting the whole thing down? Because everything that has been discussed today in terms of what is needed to make it better, I have already done in 2010. This would be, you know, 2.0 of the reforms and it has a lot to do with hitching posts. They can spend all kinds of money. So what can T.W. bring to bear?

(04:26:45)

In terms of your own resources and your connections to the immigrant rights groups... both Donovan and David said: I think the best weapon to bring to this fight is the truth. I think the facts are overwhelming that this industry has not been represented as one that should be removed. I think when we talk about the arguments that are made when they say that you cannot predict what a horse is going to do if it spooks... well, a person riding the F train cannot predict whether somebody is going to push them in front of a train. A person walking down the street cannot predict whether somebody is going to rob them. A person who walks out of their house cannot guarantee they are going to get back the same way they left. If we are basing an industry on the unknown, then no industry would be able to survive.

(04:27:35)

I think the foundation of this argument is rooted in people being bullies who have an argument that they feel they can leverage, and that is a dead 18-year-old that they are going to try to use to bully the union. Because in years past the evidence and the facts have not been on their side, and they feel like this is a golden bullet that they can shoot at the head of the union and the members of the union. When all intents and purposes the industry actually does not represent what is being projected.

I just want to say, regarding what Curtis Lee has stated: if he is going to make a statement about Local 100, I think it is important for the record to establish that this is a person who said he was kidnapped and lied about it on the record, and so his credibility is very limited when he reports on what Local 100 actually is. Thank you.

(04:28:25)

All right, that is it. Thank you. I want to thank this panel. I appreciate you. I believe...

(04:28:30)

I was asked a question. Am I not allowed to answer?

(04:28:32)

Oh, you were. I am sorry. I directed it to both... I apologize. Yeah, I appreciate it.

(04:28:38)

I think there is an education process that has happened. I think there are still some reasonable Council members who are not going to be cowered by the threats on social media and who see the importance of standing up for working people and not just throw them under the bus with some evasive language about possible job opportunities. I think we need to get out there and get the immigrant organizations who represent these groups, but also talk more about the bill that CM Gennaro introduced. People testified basically today, including the lawyer for the Roman family, that the City has not done anything. So there is a lot of room. If the City has concerns, there are a lot of common sense things that can be done that are short of throwing people under the bus, so to speak. CM Gennaro's bill does that.

We are still hoping and optimistic that New York City government is not completely dysfunctional, that there are Council members who have some common sense and can realize that there is a middle ground here. New York is the greatest city in the world. If New York City can throw a parade for 4 million people in three days to celebrate a building that was possibly crumbling, then maybe it could actually pay some attention and celebrate this industry and support these drivers and do something other than just driving them into unemployment. All right. Thank you.

(04:30:19)

Thank you. Thank you, panel. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. All right. Next panel is...

(04:30:35)

Brian Shapiro, Wayne Pacelle, Bill Ketele, Kathleen Schatz and Dr. Joanna Grossman.

(04:31:13)

Please keep it brief. I want to remind people, please keep your testimony to two minutes. Once the bell rings, just wrap it up and then submit your testimony to us, please. It is really important. Otherwise we are going to be here till midnight and we cannot do that. We are not going to be able to accommodate everybody that wants to testify. So who is going first?

(04:31:32)

Okay. Go ahead. Hello. Thank you and good afternoon, Chair Schulman, honorable Council members. My name is Brian, from Humane World for Animals, formerly the Humane Society of the United States. We are here supporting Int 0943-2026. This legislation would address many of the safety shortcomings that the horse carriage industry has continued for decades. The industry's answer is to put more rules in place, all funded by taxpayers. Their representatives suddenly acknowledge that existing rules were never consistently followed and authorities are now needed to enforce them.

Compliance should not look like a regulator standing over a horse carriage with an open ticket book and pen in hand. The industry has traditionally controlled its own operations. It did not need to wait for another law or death or accident. It could have done so after the 2007 or 2009 audits and it could have done so in the past 160 years. City agencies have tried regulations yet serious problems remain. In fact, our recent records requests exposed serious problems in the oversight that go unnoticed by the City. One agency only maintains records on horses while another maintains records on drivers, carriages and businesses. There is no evidence that the agencies effectively share and link records together to show what horses are pulling a carriage, for which driver, which owner, how long the horses are working. There needs to be a hard look at this.

Humane World for Animals and other rescue organizations stand ready and have always stood ready to help with this situation so that no animal goes to horse slaughter. I think it is fantastical and outrageous to say that these animals are done for. I am not an equine surgeon. I am someone who has 26 years of experience in this field and I, and my organization, stand by Catskill Animal Sanctuary and Equine Advocates. We are not fly-by-night operations. We are professionals who are here to assist and help these horses. Thank you for the opportunity to present and thank you for your time.

(04:33:44)

Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Joanna Grossman and I am the Equine Program Director for the Animal Welfare Institute. We are grateful to Speaker Menin, Council Majority Leader, Chair Schulman and the committee for calling this hearing on Int 0943-2026. As one of the nation's oldest animal protection groups, we head up the Homes for Horses Coalition, which is a network of over 500 equine rescues and sanctuaries. We fully support this legislation to phase out horse carriages in the City. This reform is long overdue and we trust that the Council will do right by ending these unnecessary rides.

The question is not whether horses can pull these carriages, but whether the circumstances pose too many risks, and the answer unequivocally is yes. Horse-drawn carriages do not need to continue in such a densely populated setting with conditions that run counter to equine welfare, not to mention countless factors that can cause these horses to spook and bolt. Matt's death is an unimaginable tragedy. No family should have to face it. It should weigh heavily on all of us as we consider how to prevent more accidents. I do not think there was a dry eye in the room hearing what that family has endured.

As the Central Park Conservancy put it, this is the tragedy we feared when we first called for horse carriages to be banned from Central Park due to the risks they pose. Immediately after a 16-year-old horse named Remy collapsed and died struggling to breathe in front of onlookers, Philadelphia became the latest city to prohibit horse-drawn carriages. New York must be a leader in this space before the next inevitable accident occurs. There have been far too many troubling incidents in recent years. Continuing the status quo is not tenable for the sake of New Yorkers, visitors to the City and the horses themselves. The risks and problems are well understood: the exhaust pollution, noise, lights, traffic congestion, construction, asphalt temperature extremes, long hours, lack of access to pasture and turnout. These are just some of the welfare concerns that exist and the list could easily go on. How many times do we have to see a horse collapse or spook before taking action? Hopefully no longer. Thank you very much.

(04:35:48)

I am Wayne Pacelle, President of Humane Action. You know, in the nineteenth century there were whale oil lamps around Central Park. Are we going to persist with those, with the understanding that there were innovative energy sources coming online? With whaling, are we...

(04:36:08)

...going to say we are going to take the jobs from the whalers and therefore we are going to continue to kill whales because we want those lamps, even though we have superior alternative methods to deliver light when it is dark at night? I led a ballot measure in Oklahoma to outlaw cockfighting in 2002. Not that long ago it was legal. There were fighting birds in the state. There were 10,000 cockfighters. You, Madam Chair, and other members have been gracious in talking about providing economic support for people who have a vestigial practice that does not generate much money. It is just a very small number of people. The City is saying they are going to help them. There was no support for the people involved in cockfighting in that state of Oklahoma. The same thing happened in Louisiana. The same thing happened in the nineteenth century with dog fighting here.

This is a very balanced approach that you have taken. You are identifying a practice that is demonstrably inhumane to the horses, that led to the death of a boy who, if this Council had acted a short time ago, would be alive. We have all sorts of other transportation opportunities. We have all sorts of tourism opportunities. Why are we holding on to this practice, seeing that Chicago and Philadelphia and cities around the country have addressed this issue? We hear arguments from the proponents of this that it is going to lead to the end of all animal use. Where have we heard such nonsense before? As for real estate people, I have no idea what they are talking about with real estate issues. It is a bunch of nonsense. You all are on the right track. I encourage you to maintain such a balanced approach.

(04:37:58)

Thank you. Next.

(04:38:01)

Good afternoon. My name is Kathleen Shatt. I am the Strategic Labor and Government Affairs Manager with the Animal Legal Defense Fund, and I want to start by thanking CM Marte for introducing this Bill and to all of the 21 Council Members that are signed on in support. We too are supportive and committed to this issue, and the Animal Legal Defense Fund is committing to contributing to the cost of transport for the horses should you vote to pass Int 0943-2026, Roman's Law. I mentioned that because there has been discussion and talk about the cost and financial aspect of a transition.

We are all here as animal protection organizations. However, make no mistake: this is a public safety issue. In 2014, the Animal Legal Defense Fund's successful State Freedom of Information Act lawsuit revealed that New York City's carriage drivers had committed more than a dozen hit and runs over the previous five years, and that cyclists, pedestrians, carriage drivers, passengers had all been physically injured by accidents involving New York City's horse carriages. In one incident, I think this just needs us to go into detail: a child was rushed to the hospital after falling out of a carriage and being run over by a wheel. In another incident, a carriage driver was found by police lying in the street, not moving after being thrown to the ground. Another carriage driver was hospitalized in a coma after his horse became startled and collided with a station wagon.

This latest unimaginable tragedy exemplifies the urgent need to bring an end to the horse carriage industry in New York City. A prohibition on horse-drawn carriages is the only meaningful way to definitively protect the public and the horses in New York City, and we urge you all to pass Int 0943-2026. But I do want to make one last comment: New York City is the greatest city in the world, and it will remain so without horse carriages. Thank you very much.

(04:40:14)

Okay, go ahead. Hi.

(04:40:16)

Hi. Good afternoon. My name is Ayanna Sueme, and I am the Policy and Advocacy Manager at Voters for Animal Rights. We represent a community of over 100,000 New York City voters for whom animal protection is a top priority at the ballot box. First, I want to thank Speaker Menin for not only scheduling this hearing but being an advocate of this Bill. CM Schulman, thank you for your leadership as Chair of the Health Committee. CM Marte, thank you for prime sponsoring Roman's Law. Thank you as well to the Council's Animal Caucus for standing behind this across multiple terms.

New York City voters have consistently supported a horse carriage ban by over a two-thirds majority, and voters are united because the pattern of suffering is undeniable. As previously mentioned, in the 13 months before Roman Schmoe Hodgins' tragic death on June 17 — and thank you to his family for their courage in testifying today — Central Park saw eight separate horse-related incidents. But the casualties of this industry go back decades. The first named carriage horse who died on the streets of New York City was a horse named Mageo in 1982. Since then, dozens of horses have been killed by this industry through sheer exhaustion, traffic collisions, untreated sickness, electrocution, malnourishment and poisonous plants. The causes of death tell the story of the many ways in which horses simply do not belong in the middle of our bustling modern city.

This industry does not just fail horses — it fails the people who work in it, which is why Voters for Animal Rights eagerly supports Mayor Mamdani's Department of Consumer and Worker Protection to transition these carriage drivers into safer, higher-paying jobs, so these workers can not only survive but thrive. The horses deserve better, and the carriage drivers also deserve better than gig work with no sick pay, retirement or health benefits. How many more horses and humans have to die by this industry before this Council decides the cost is too high? Thank you very much.

(04:42:23)

Thank you. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Council. I am Bill Kizer, Senior Director of Government Relations for the ASPCA, and I am honored to testify in support of Int 0943-2026. The ASPCA has worked to protect horses since our founding in 1866, and our support for this legislation is rooted in that 160-year history.

We have endorsed many efforts to regulate carriage horse welfare over the years. While those reforms have improved certain aspects of the industry, they cannot address the fundamental and persistent challenges associated with horses pulling carriages through one of the busiest, loudest and most densely populated urban environments on the planet. It is inherently dangerous and inherently inhumane. Our position is not based on this summer's horrific events alone. It reflects years of experience and recognition that the risks associated with horse-drawn carriage operations are not avoidable.

Carriage horses must navigate congested streets, construction zones, emergency vehicles, constant traffic and thousands of pedestrians every day. These intelligent and sensitive animals are large and they are powerful, and even the best-trained horse can react unpredictably when frightened or startled. The recent death of carriage horse Denise, followed days later by the tragic death of 18-year-old Roman Mahajan in Central Park, reminds us that the consequences extend beyond equine welfare. These were not isolated incidents. In the last 13 months alone, as others have said, horses collapsed and died, horses have run into moving traffic, collisions have overturned carriages, tourists have been forced to leap from moving carriages and multiple drivers have been injured. This activity cannot be eliminated through additional regulation, and New York City should adopt a lasting solution — not more studies or another decade of incremental reforms. We need a solution that credibly protects horses, supports workers and reflects the values...

(04:44:24)

...of a modern city, and we respectfully urge you to pass Int 0943-2026. Thank you.

(04:44:30)

Thank you. I have a couple of questions, actually, for you. ASPCA agents are authorized to inspect stables. How many violations has the ASPCA identified during stable inspections over the past five years? We no longer do humane law enforcement. We do have an MOU with... well, that has been the case since 2014. Okay, all right, thank you. That answers the other questions that followed from that one.

(04:44:54)

So, no. So...

(04:44:55)

Do not worry about it. Thank you all.

(04:44:57)

Thank you very much. Oh, no — Jim. Jim. Sorry, Chuck.

(04:45:02)

Council Member, yeah. I might tell this panel that everyone talks about how congested Manhattan is. The population of Manhattan today is the same as it was in 1950 — it was 2 million — and the cars used to be a lot less. So there goes that argument. And regarding the... now I understand it is just like a whole lobbying thing, but once upon a time you were out there, you were in the park, you were in the stables all the time, and I think your people just got bored of not finding anything, and so you know...

(04:45:59)

And also, as an animal rights organization, I will say this again: have you done anything about, like, Japanese knotweed? Are you concerned about that? It is toxic to all animals, and yet I am sure you guys have not made a peep about that. Anyway, I do not have a high opinion of what you have given us here.

(04:46:28)

That is not fact. You have a question, Counsel — your opinion. And so I guess my question is, where do you get off...

(04:46:37)

Where do you get off just coming here — your testimony is like your personal opinion, which I guess you are entitled to. But you are representing an organization. If you were here by yourself, I would say fine, you know, voice any opinion you want. But you come here and you just give us your own personal opinion. I do not know if that is policy. You spout things without any kind of backup, and this is why people are... I do not remember. That is my question. They are allowed to testify to what they want on this issue. You cannot question that. If you have a question specific to what they do as an organization, that is fine.

(04:47:11)

Otherwise, I am not going to allow it. And I made my point.

(04:47:15)

Good. I would like to answer about the leaded gasoline. No.

(04:47:18)

No, no. I am not asking you a question about that. You raised the issue. I am not asking you a question. That time is out. That is it.

(04:47:32)

So thank you to this panel. Really appreciate your testimony. We are going to take a 15-minute break. Everyone just... yeah, yeah.

(04:48:55)

Folks, could we just please all find our seats. Please find your seats. Please take conversations outside the chambers. We will be resuming momentarily. Please find your seats. Quiet on the floor, please. Find your seats. Quiet on the floor. If you wish to speak today and you have not filled out an appearance card, please see one of the Sergeants at Arms and fill out a card, even if you pre-registered to speak online. Please keep all food and beverages away. There is no eating or drinking in the chambers. Please find your seats. Quiet on the floor. Quiet on the floor, please.

(05:10:43)

We are beginning again. The next panel is Ahmet... I think it is... okay, Tariq... Eric... no, I cannot read that. Routine is fine. Mary, Cornelius, Burn, John, Rosie Junior and Natasha... and... Kubiak. I am probably not pronouncing it right, but I cannot read the writing. Does anyone need a translation?

(05:11:51)

He needs a translator. Okay, we will take care of that. Just one second.

(05:12:41)

Can the translator... can you tell us your name? Simon — S-A-Y-M-A-Z. And his name? His name is Ahmet... okay. So why do you not go first, since you need the translator.

(05:13:05)

You have to tell him he has two minutes.

(05:13:18)

I am a Turkish American. I am an immigrant here. I am a horse carriage driver and owner. I have been keeping horses as part of the business in Central Park and I have been a carriage driver since 2003 in Central Park. I came to this country not just for me but also for my family. I actually made this my career for the last 23 years and have put all of my savings into this business.

(05:14:35)

I have been working in Central Park in New York...

(05:14:52)

...for some years now. You know, I believe that this is a heritage. This is a symbol of Central Park. I can speak for myself and for the other carriage drivers — we have been doing all of our best for safety. All the concerns... okay, you are going to get an extra two minutes because of the translation. So just put another two minutes on, okay.

Sometimes things get difficult, and now I am shocked that after so long here, after all I have built, they want to take away my business. I came to this country to live the American Dream. I spent almost a quarter century building and living this business, putting my family's and my future into this business. Now everybody is gathered here and talking about putting me on the street, leaving me with no work. They talk about job replacement and all those good things, but they are not talking about my entire life savings. I have kids. They are all going to college. What do they want me to do — pack up and leave?

(05:16:43)

Some people think that the horses are only with us between 9 and 5, but that is not the fact. As some people have also mentioned here, we have actually been living and breathing with these horses, sometimes 24 hours a day. I am not just talking about the work hours, but...

(05:17:31)

...in part, we do not just spend time with the horses only when we are working. On our off days, during the hours that we are not working, we are still with the horses. We give them a bath, we feed them, we make sure that they are taken care of. We see them as part of our family.

(05:17:52)

Okay. He needs to summarize and wrap it up.

(05:17:56)

You know, in New York, the door that opens is smarter than they give us credit for. Our horses have been part of our lives for thousands of years, and even here in this room I can see that — it is also in the pictures...

(05:18:35)

...on the painting right here on the wall. And I believe that part of this city was also built with horses, and now they want to get rid of them. We want the horses to be part of our lives in the...

(05:18:47)

...city. Okay, all right, thank you. Who is next? Okay, is the mic on? Okay.

(05:19:01)

Yeah, pull the mic towards your mouth so that we can hear you. Okay.

(05:19:07)

Thank you. My name is Carlina Burn. When the park was first built, there were hitching posts all over the place and they were very good for safety and security. Today I have heard them kind of minimized here as if they were something that would not work anyway if they were installed, but for safety and security reasons we need these, and we have begged and pleaded for them and never got them. They are so essential, and you have got to listen to the people that are in the business about what they want. We needed these hitching posts.

The fatal accident that happened in Central Park would never have happened and this fellow would be alive if we were allowed to have hitching posts where we bring those carriages for pictures and where we stand waiting for rides. A few horses jumped off the line and ran through the park last summer, and it was recorded. But as I say again, if a hitching post had tied those horses in, that would not have happened.

Now the horse at the fountain that ran away — he ran away so viciously, nobody has ever experienced that speed. He acted as if he was electrocuted, and I have some thoughts on what caused this. I did a little research, and at Cherry Hill there is a massive infrastructure of underground wiring that is an important part of the power grid for the whole of Central Park and for the surrounding areas. A recent irrigation project was done there. The footings were put in wrong and the wrong materials were used, and the wires were probably disturbed because they dug those foundations wrong. As I say, there is a spaghetti of wires down there below the ground, and not a lot of people would realize that. This area is now wet and muddy and sandy throughout, and sand is highly conductive to electricity. You need to summarize — a horse standing there with metal shoes could easily be hit with stray voltage in the sand. This could be the very probable cause of what happened to that horse.

And I need to add one thing: the same landscape management team that planted the poisonous flowers that killed the horse Denise were the same people who did the irrigation project in Central Park. And if you were just to look at it, you would understand that if it is not dangerous, it is at least illegal. It could never have passed code.

(05:21:57)

Okay. Well, one thing else...

(05:21:59)

No. You need to summarize. I am telling you, everybody has two minutes because we have been here for a long time. I understand that, but we also have other people that are not going to wait till midnight, so I am telling you to summarize it or else we are going to the next person.

(05:22:12)

There are livelihoods involved here for these people, and they are very determined to keep them. And there are the lives of the horses — let us keep them alive. Because you are going to end both if you pass this legislation.

(05:22:27)

Thank you. Who is next? Okay, go ahead. Next.

(05:22:31)

Hello there, Council Members. My name is Tarek. What I am dealing with right now is some kind of a family business. You probably heard the name. Dennis the horse died in the park because he ate a poisoned plant. Unfortunately, his owner, Loretta Carter, over here is my uncle. Like I said, it is some kind of a family business, and I started to work here thanks to them — him and his brother. A week before that I was earning my living with a company that I created. We talked, my friends, by developing computer games, and before that I graduated from a good college. However, this process — that I started to help my uncles and started spending time with the horses — it helped me to discover my actual passion.

And that is how... I always defined myself as an animal lover, and so I became able to work with the horses. There was something in that process for me, you know? So much so that I left my company — that content company that I created — and started to work here. So I mean, okay, technology will take many people's jobs, but it will never replace my horse, my beautiful horse Leila, and I am not afraid of that. I mean, I can make money somehow from other stuff. What I actually fear is the possibility of shutting down the horse carriage business, because unlike many of these folks behind me — the animal activists — I will never call myself an animal abuser, you know? Because like I told you before, I love animals.

Dennis was also my horse. I worked with him for two years and I learned everything from him. So you know, I lost him. It was so hard. He was only one of the eight horses that I work with. I cannot imagine how hard it will be for me to lose all of them. I just do not want any alternative job or any other way to earn money. I just want to keep going with my life in that way, with my horses. Thank you.

(05:24:53)

Thank you. Less and...

(05:25:00)

Hello, my name is Natalya Ivanova. I am a carriage driver for more than 10 years, working in Central Park. My daughter — she wanted me to read this letter. She left early this morning and she wanted me to say from her: "I used to work in the Central Park carriage industry and my mom still does, and I can say these people truly have your back and take care. The truth is they are some of the best people I know. They are, in the truest sense, true New Yorkers — hard workers, always looking forward, ready to learn. They love their community and they love the horses. I understand the world is changing, and so is the City. But this is such a special group of people and community that still exists in our world of artificial intelligence and advanced technology. Maybe the focus should be on how we preserve horses and livelihoods such as these, rather than making more room for more boxes of concrete.

Maybe the social justice activists should be focused on the greed that is bringing businesses like this down, harassing hardworking people, caring people. Perhaps a more reasonable solution is watering stations and tie posts. Horses are shiny and soft by nature. Unfortunately, the reality of the horse world is that accidents happen, but I can tell you this for sure — they are a lot more common in every other part of the horse world: barrel racing and any other kind of activity. Accidents also happen when you ride a bike and do not see a car coming, or go swimming and happen to run into a shark. It does not mean we stop living or doing things we love, but we can always educate and adjust how we do things. So I am asking you to help us and stand up for the little guys — the carriage drivers and their beloved horses." Natalia.

(05:27:28)

Thank you. Appreciate it. Next.

(05:27:34)

My name is John Cord Rosie. I am here in opposition to the ban that is being proposed. While there has been an uproar as of late, and periodically in the past, a ban is mostly brought about by exaggeration and escalation by animal rights organizations that have been visibly pushing this agenda — many of whom have publicly expressed their desire to remove animals from people's lives and habitats, something that would be a one-sided point of view and tragic on a major scale in New York City. The carriage horses, which are a niche activity and easily misunderstood by non-horse-experienced people and non-horse-care-related individuals, wear things like horse blinders that protect horses from distractions. Pulling a carriage on level ground like New York City is less laborious than riding a horse. These are easily misunderstood. Like any activity, there are accidents and bad actors, for which government puts in rules and enforcement as is reasonably needed, without imposing unnecessarily...

(05:28:53)

...on functionality and enjoyment. There must be a balancing of rules and enforcement to keep horses, carriages, operators and the public's right to enjoyment intact and safe. This includes things like — as have been mentioned already — establishing rules for reasonable care, so that toxic plants to specific animals are not put where these animals are known to frequent. A reasonable request for hitching posts and watering troughs should be provided so the horses, which are typically idle and stopped, can be...

(05:29:29)

And, oddly, this is something that, as mentioned, is not new to New York City, but somehow it has gone missing. Historically, there were always water troughs and hitching posts...

(05:29:40)

Please summarize the rest of what you have to say.

(05:29:43)

Infrastructure for horse welfare and signage for public awareness is a key responsibility of government. To quote something I have often seen: this is a historical, cultural and beautiful activity that we must protect and preserve. No group, no matter the majority or minority, should infringe upon this. I shudder to think that if every time an emotionally mob-driven mentality prevailed, what function of government would be left to do its duty in preserving the interests of all.

(05:30:13)

You have got to summarize. Your time is up. You have got a couple of sentences and then you can submit the rest in writing. What seems to be simple...

(05:30:24)

Enough that for those that do not like it, they do not have to ride, but for those that do, they should be allowed to. All horses are domesticated and are best served by continuous human care and horse-related activities as their exercise, keeping them both healthy, strong and preserving their mental and physical well-being. And if...

(05:30:46)

I could just note something about pasture, just some information... You have got to wrap it up. Tell us what the point...

(05:30:52)

...is. What is mostly misunderstood about pasture is that, although it is important, it is not all about their health. That is not the whole picture of horse life, nor is it without common risk. Exposure to toxic plants, even in pasture, happens.

(05:31:18)

Yeah, that is it. I am sorry. Thank you. Next.

(05:31:24)

My name is... I am Turkish. I have been in the United States 26 years — I came to the United States in 1999. I have been a horse carriage driver and owner for the last 10 years. Dennis was my horse that died from poisoning. I am still getting threats from social media. Even people who knew what happened are sending me messages saying, "We know where you work, it is not hard to find your address." I am just keeping on. I never answer anybody's messages. I am pushing myself to work through this hard situation, even though they knew what happened.

I have been in this business over 20 years. I know a horse giving a sign — it is just, you know, looking back in the air, looking back and trying to lie down. Dennis was a very healthy horse before dying. Two minutes before the horse died — it happened in two minutes, very quick. He just shook his body. I thought something happened. I had customers. I said, "Please get out, something is going wrong." I saw him just lay down and die very quickly. So they are still threatening us really badly from the animal activists.

Not just that — for example, the horse driver exam was given four times a year, always before. Now they started doing it once a year, and now it is like they do whatever they want. They are treating us like they do not like us. And one example: only 25 chairs were available for the horse exam. Six people passed that test. Two of them passed the written, and only one passed the practical exam. It is easier to become a PhD at Columbia University than to get a horse driver license in this City. There is no option. Turkish and American kids do not want this kind of job — they have more chances to do other things. This is an immigrant job. Please help us. We need to have good drivers. We can help.

(05:34:01)

Okay. Thank you. Well...

(05:34:04)

CM Gennaro. Yeah, so I will try to make it quick. To the owner of Dennis — I just want to point out that you told me, and I think it is important for people to know, that even though the City is obligated to have all of its materials that go out for any exam in multiple languages, the horse carriage driver test is only in English. So I think, you know, you did not have an opportunity to make that point and I wanted people to know that. A note to staff: I want that looked into.

So, you know, we go back to 1990. I first met you at Noah's. I just want to thank you for being a pillar of the horse carriage industry. And to assure you, and to strongly make the point that I have been making all along — we have been lucky to get by without hitching posts for a long time, but they are critically necessary. They used to be out there. And I thank you for making that point. I am going to drive home that point when I have an opportunity to talk to my colleagues about this Bill. You go back long enough that you remember them. So I am going to make that point. Good to see you again. Thank you. I will do whatever I can for the industry and I appreciate you. Thank you.

(05:35:45)

Okay. Thank you. I want to thank this panel. Thank you for coming. Okay. The next panel: James Innes, Jeff Cohen, Valerie Oldson McCarthy — sorry if I mess up any names — Keith Pesky, Kyle Pesky, Janet White and Kathryn Freed. Please come forward if you are here.

James Innes, Jeff Cohen, Valerie Outzen McCarthy, Kyle Passkey, Janet White and Kathryn Freed. For former members here, I just want to point out that Kathryn — yeah, that is her on the left. Okay, so she is here. I am going to call a few more folks over. Celine Parness, Marilyn Frolic, Mary Rohrlich, Eleanor Malt-Ogod. Sorry we are mispronouncing people's names, but Celine Parness, Marianne Bolic, Elinor... Maggie Ness, Michael Petrocelli — please come over. And Freed, you begin. Welcome.

(05:38:39)

Back on the record. Okay. Hi. Thank you. My name is Kathryn Freed. I live in lower Manhattan. I am actually a former City Council Member from Council District One, same as Chris Marte, and I wanted to thank each Council Member for calling this hearing, and CM Schulman and of course Christopher Marte who sponsored the Bill, and the rest of the Council Members and everyone here today.

I am speaking in favor of the Bill. I felt I had to come today because I sponsored the original horse carriage bill, and that was almost 35 years ago. Everything I have heard so far here today is very similar to the problems we had then. At that time there was a push also to ban horse carriages entirely from the City. At that time, however, it was legal for horse carriages to go throughout the City — so we had horse carriages in the theater district, the tourist district, the Upper West Side, even sometimes in the Lower East Side. A lot of the arguments we heard today were the same arguments. As I said, it has been 35 years.

What we did is we limited horse carriages to the park, and we really thought that we would give the industry a chance. The industry said, "We will clean up our act, we will take care of the horses, we will not have the problems" — the carriage accidents and horses running and people being injured, drivers being injured.

(05:40:06)

And here we are 35 years later with the same problems. I think 35 years is long enough for the industry to get it right, if it is going to get it right. The last several weeks, with Dennis dying, with Ramsés... dying because a horse driver did not take proper care of the horse so that the horse would not run — the nature of horses has not changed in 30 years or 3,000 years. They spook, they run. They are not well-suited to a cosmopolitan city like New York that has all kinds of noises and things that will always scare them.

And quite frankly, you also heard Christopher Marte speaking initially about the fact that the industry has not allowed the veterinarians in to check the horses and make sure they are okay. Not all of those horses out there in the street are okay. And I am a horse person. I was riding horses when I was eight years old. I have ridden in Central Park and Prospect Park. I have ridden in Africa and South America and Central America. I mean, I used to take people out on trail rides in Pennsylvania, where I grew up. So I know about horses. I love horses.

We tried. 35 years is enough. If the industry cannot get it together — or is not interested enough to get it together — after all that time, they are not going to get it together in another hundred years. And it is not going to be just hitching posts. It is just that in a cosmopolitan city like New York, it just does not work. It is not good for the horses. It is not good for the City. And quite frankly, they are here all for the tourism industry. What does it look like when people are traumatized and crying because they see a horse die in the street? Or the tears from the family when Ramsés died? This is not a good look, Council Member. Thank you. I would urge you — again, 35 years is enough — I would urge you to pass this Bill.

(05:42:29)

Thank you. Thank you.

(05:42:33)

Any of you all could identify yourselves just so that we can mark it off. Thank...

(05:42:37)

I am Eleanor Malt-Ogod. I am legal counsel for the Humane Society of New York, right here on 59th Street, and I am here to testify in favor of Int 0943-2026. I will even go back almost 50 years. I drafted the rental horse licensing and protection law working with then-CM Stern, Antonio Olivieri Morton and Pat Kaufman — these are way back when. At that time I was with... the law passed. We thought, great, things will get better. There was concern about lame horses, overworked horses, accidents, horses working in traffic and horses working in severe weather conditions. Even after the law passed, four horses dropped dead literally in New York City during the summer heat.

So the concern is for the horses, not so much for the industry. And even now, when I was listening to the testimony, I listened to the Health Department say how many horses they suspended because of the heat. I am thinking: why did they even have to suspend the horses? Why were they out there at all? We all know what the weather report is. Why would they even be out there, having to wait to be suspended?

And just one last thing, because we all know about the accidents and I do not want to be too repetitive. In another conversation I had with CM Stern, who became Parks Commissioner Stern after we had worked together on the City legislation, there were efforts to have the horses go to the park. He said to me: no. He said, as much as he was an advocate for the horses, he said, "This is just going to bring all of the terrible problems we have in the City streets to the park — with the pedestrians, with the bicyclists, with the cars, with everything." And he was right. How many more accidents must there be before we do something? The reform has not worked. The regulations have not worked. So it is time. And we thank you very much. Thank you, Kyle.

(05:45:00)

Good afternoon. I am Kyle Jessica and I am here representing the horses. This is for them...

(05:45:12)

...as their spokesperson.

Hey man, take a look at what you have done — beat us, ride us so you could have fun, whip us, race us, make us run. Where your being is in every single one. It is our nature to oblige, we do not resist. Is that why you persist? We were once free. Once we were creatures of beauty. Now look at me. Your greed and vanity is killing me. Please let me be. Please save me and set me free. How proud you are when we are something new, but when we get old and tired, we are through. Our awful fate we never knew — on somebody's plate, on a menu, dog food or glue. We are lassoed, we are tattooed, we are broken in, saddled, reined in, shod, and then you do with us whatever you want to do. Beat us, eat us, brand us, strand us. We give you thrills and then we are killed. You jump us and dump us, you wear us. Seems you could not care less. So few are kind, so many are mean. I wonder what it feels like to be a human being. Please save the horses. Please save me. You are killing me. Let me be.

Thank you. Good...

(05:46:41)

Good afternoon, Speaker and Chairperson of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Michael Petrelli. I am an experienced horseman, trained in the field and the founder of Equine Advocacy Alliance. I have spent decades working with horses and I know firsthand the care, respect and understanding they require. My testimony today is based on years of experience with horses and countless hours documenting the realities of the carriage horse industry in New York City.

As a horseman, I can tell you that horses are prey animals. They can be gentle and well trained, but they are also instinctive. When frightened, they react. No law, regulation, inspection or training program can eliminate thousands of years of instinct. That is why horses do not belong in one of the busiest and most congested cities in the world. I have witnessed horses working in crowds. I have documented horses that have collapsed and been involved in carriage accidents. Most recently, just yesterday, two more horses were left unattended by their driver — one taking pictures, no different than what happened to Raymond, and another one who was holding a lead rope and sitting in the carriage in front of him in the back seat, just kicking back and relaxing. I have witnessed horses running loose through Central Park and City streets. Every one of those incidents placed both the horses and the public in danger.

Now we have witnessed the unthinkable. An 18-year-old, Raymond, came to New York City from India to celebrate his graduation with his family. Instead of returning home with happy memories, he lost his life on a horse carriage ride in Central Park. My heart goes out to him and I cannot put it into words. His death is a heartbreaking reminder that this is no longer just an animal welfare issue. It is also a public safety issue.

These are things I learned over three years documenting the horses coming to the park. As a horseman, I expected to be treated and welcomed as one. These people are not horsemen. We have reached the point where the risks outweigh the tradition. We owe it to the horses, to New Yorkers and to every visitor who comes to the City expecting to return home safely. As an experienced horseman, I know what horses need. New York City is certainly not it. It is quite the opposite. As an advocate, I have documented what these horses endure in the streets of New York City. I respectfully ask that you pass Sanchez's law and end the horse-drawn carriage industry in New York City. The time has come to put the welfare of these horses and the safety of the public first.

(05:48:55)

Thank you, sir. Can you...

(05:48:55)

...repeat your name just so that we can mark you down? Michael Petrelli. Okay. Thanks.

(05:49:06)

My name is Janet Whites. I am the founder and director of Carriage Horse Freedom, which is an animal advocacy organization in Philadelphia. I am here to strongly support the passage of this law. It is unmistakably clear, especially in light of the recent tragedies, that horse-drawn carriages pose unacceptable risks to public safety and to animal welfare.

The sponsor of the bill to ban horse carriages in Philadelphia, named Mark Squilla, sent a statement to New York City Council members. I would just like to share that with you briefly. What he said was: Philadelphia tried incremental welfare reforms over the years, but it became clear that neither public safety nor animal welfare could be fully protected without ending the practice altogether. Although we never experienced tragedies of this scale, New York City has. We acted because the risks were unmistakable and a full ban was the only way to prevent future harm to both people and horses. We encourage you to pass this law.

I also encourage you — I think the majority of New Yorkers, the majority of responsible people — urge you to pass this law without delay. Thank you.

(05:50:51)

Thank you all for coming. This panel is dismissed. Thank you. The next panel is Ahmed Severe, Jill Adamski, Jeffrey... very beautiful handwriting but I cannot read it... Olga Humphrey and Carolina Roberts. Let me read them again: Carolina Roberts, Olga Humphrey, Jeffrey... Jill Adamski and Ahmed Severe. Also, adjunct... feel free to join. And again, when you start, just identify yourself so we can check it off. Thank you. Begin when you are ready.

(05:52:04)

You can begin. Love, hope... turn the... begin when you are ready. Think.

(05:52:11)

My name is George. Okay. First I want to offer my deepest sympathy to the family. When I was in college, I wanted to free the carriage horses. I became a journalist and was obsessed with truth, facts and context. I learned to research everything. My view of the carriage horses changed when I first heard about NYCLASS. I researched them. I wondered why they posted a picture of an emaciated horse, claiming it was a New York City carriage horse, when it was actually a starving horse in India. I was appalled by their hatred of the quote "fat tourists" who the poor horses had to struggle to pull around. Even NYCLASS's veterinarian consultant was a small animal vet their entire career. Why was anyone listening to them? Their entire history continues to be littered with manipulating context and flat-out lying.

I have been greatly disappointed that many Council members are not doing independent research on this issue. They are using NYCLASS talking points. They have called the conditions the horses work under abusive. But here is the truth: the horses work under protective laws. The Council established the rules about temperatures, hours, stall sizes and more. The horses are also monitored by the police and mounted patrol riders. Ryder did not die on the streets of New York as Linda Rosenthal said. He was humanely euthanized at his new home outside of the City when he was found to have cancer. Ryder's owner was found not guilty of cruelty by a New York jury. Why was it called Ryder's law for so long? Because the truth was not convenient for NYCLASS.

Now the false claim is that the carriage horses are a public safety hazard. Carriage rides started over 150 years ago and the recent death was the first of its kind. So if my math is right, that means that century after century, the carriage horses have had a better safety record than the vehicles that they share the park roads with. I am in the park all the time. I would rather step in front of a carriage horse than any e-bike. A ban will create a horrible domino effect. If you force horses that already have a good home out instead of a horse to his goal... who is going to slaughter them? You do not really care about horses at all. Thank you.

(05:54:39)

Thank you. Can the last person on the panel identify yourself just so that we have the right name, please? Oh, she does not have a translator? Oh, I am sorry. Not her — you. What is your name? Carlina. Okay, we are going to start on this end and then continue on the panel, please.

(05:55:11)

Start. Yes. Can you turn on the microphone? I am Adamski. It appears I am speaking to a nearly empty room at this point after I waited all day. The Speaker and other Council members that signed on to this Bill apparently just have a fix in, because they do not care to hear from many of us that had to speak and sign on the available list before we spoke. But I will give my testimony.

What happened to her was a terrible tragedy that broke so many hearts. It was not anyone here's fault. It was a horrible accident. Though the first of its kind in history, it has already resulted in changes to further improve the safety of this industry. An accident — like all the e-bike and car accidents every day — to take the jobs, livelihoods and beloved animals from everyone in the industry does not give anyone justice. It causes even greater heartbreak.

No one should be a voice for horses other than those of us who know them best. I will not have time to debunk every claim made by the people against this industry, but as someone who reads beyond the headlines and actually understands horses, I can tell you with confidence there are no systemic recurring issues within this industry and no abuse beyond the harassment carriage drivers receive from people who have dehumanized them because they misunderstand horses and have ideologies that should not dictate legislation. I see the faces of people who have taunted and obsessively stopped me for years in this room. But because I have so much pride in what I do and it means so much to me, I find the strength to put up with it to do what I love.

I left the office world to pursue this career because happiness is more important than money, and I am a horse person. My two horses are very bonded to me and over the nine and a half years I have driven in this industry, I have taken great care of them and abided by the City's Administrative Code. I have no plans to separate from my horses, but this Bill gives me no financial aid for their long-term care while simultaneously stopping me from providing them with the work they enjoy that keeps them healthy. I do not want a different job. I chose this one and it is my passion in life and where I belong. I have always called New York City my home and it is what my horses call home, and I find it very offensive that anyone would suggest we are no longer welcome here.

I ask the Council to do the right thing and avoid the guilt of ruining families' and horses' lives, and oppose this awful Bill as every previous administration has done every time it is reintroduced. Thanks. And I expect to be back here for a hearing on Int 0937, which is about preserving this iconic industry while ensuring its safety without...

(05:57:48)

...anyone having to lose what they love. Thank you. We have to keep it to two minutes because we have hundreds of people still signed up, so we have to give everyone ample time. You begin — identify yourself.

(05:58:06)

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak. My name is... I am a veteran in Ecuador and for the past two years I have proudly worked as a horse carriage driver here in New York City. Today I am not here to speak about my human family. I am here to speak for my equine family. I heard that the proposal is to send our horses...

(05:58:30)

...to sanctuaries. But every day I see sanctuaries asking for donations just to feed the animals they already have. Is that really the better future for our horses? Our horses receive excellent care. They are examined by veterinarians twice a year, vaccinated, receive regular dental and hoof care. It is premium quality hay and grain and they enjoy fresh carrots every day. They do not depend on charity. They live with dignity because we work together, bringing joy to thousands of people while they are earning our honest living.

We know and love our horses. If I mentioned Sofia, Handsome Jack, Bella, Caesar or Blackie, every carriage driver knows exactly who they are, their personality, what they are afraid of, whether they prefer carrots or apples. We know them and we love them. I am not saying our industry is perfect, but there is always room for improvement and we are willing to improve. I also believe there is a better solution — it is a personal vote.

(05:59:44)

A stable with masters in sight of Central Park. That would really eliminate unnecessary travel through traffic, allow the public to see how well our horses are cared for. I am talking about locals. Preserve our jobs. We already pay rent at our stable, so we can keep paying rent and support the park. So please, do not let New York lose this historic tradition. Thank you. Thank you so much.

(06:00:17)

Good afternoon, Chair and members of the Council. My name is Carlina Roberts, also known as Rocky in the animal rights community. I am an actress and I am an animal rights advocate and I traveled here from Mexico City because I believe these horses deserve a voice and should not suffer for human entertainment. For years I have documented New York City's carriage horses while speaking up for many other animals who cannot speak for themselves, like the bulls in Mexico who are victims of bullfighting.

(06:00:45)

New York has always led by example. Humane alternatives already exist. We do not need horse-drawn carriages to welcome visitors. I also recognize that the men and women who work in this industry do provide a service. But this is not about punishing workers. It is about creating a safer, more humane future for both horses and people through a transition to modern alternatives.

I have spent countless hours in Central Park observing these horses, photographing them and filming them, speaking with tourists and witnessing this industry firsthand. I have stood beside New York City's carriage horses. I have seen them standing for hours on hard pavement surrounded by traffic, pulling heavy carriages. These horses never chose this life. Remon Mahajan should still be alive. His tragic death reminds us that this industry not only endangers horses but puts human lives at risk.

I have also experienced harassment while peacefully advocating for these horses. My friends and I have been physically confronted by a violent carriage man who left his horse unattended, simply for expressing concern for their welfare. Today you have the opportunity to protect these horses and help move New York toward a safer, more compassionate future. I respectfully ask you to pass this law and bring an end to horse-drawn carriages in New York City, and please send these horses to a sanctuary where they belong.

(06:02:20)

Muchas gracias. Thank you so much to this panel. You are dismissed. The next panel is Helen David, Mary Herbie... Alison Bowling, Jim Keane, Mel... Susan Waggoner. One second. Hey, Jamie Baldanza, can you also fill out a slip, please? He can join the panel when he gets here. I am sorry, can you fill out another one? Okay. Thank you. You begin and identify yourself for the record, whoever wants to begin. My name is Helen.

(06:03:50)

All right. So I am Helen David and I am a tour guide in Central Park and a pedicab driver for 23 years in New York City. I started in June 2004 and when I initially started, I used to park my pedicab at the stable on 52nd Street, so I have seen countless things that I was not supposed to see as a pedicab driver in a horse stable. This was back in 2006 and 2007. Now working in Central Park alongside some of these horse and carriage drivers behind me, I just want to make it clear to the Council that some of those guys were pedicab drivers. So if they need to be transitioned to another job, they can always go back to the pedicab, because that is where we started off as pedicab drivers.

It is safer in Central Park. Also, another thing I want to make clear: the day Dennis's horse died, the horse was out for a long time, far more than it was supposed to be, because 5 o'clock is when they are supposed to change the shift for the horses to go back to the stable. But the incident happened way after Dennis was supposed to be at the stable. So I work alongside the horse and carriage drivers who I see every single day. I am in Central Park sometimes at 6:30 in the morning and I am there up until 8 o'clock, so I see in and out of what is going on in Central Park with the horse and carriage. I am not here to bash anybody. I am here to speak the truth and I do not want anybody to go out there and try to blame Central Park, saying that the horse ate a poisonous plant, when it was actually exhaustion. Because I was there the day that horse died. I know what time that horse came in and then when the horse passed away I was home, because that horse was supposed to have left the park before I did. So therefore I am just here to let you guys know...

(06:05:42)

...that we are out here. The pedicab industry is represented and if we are to serve the City and our tourists in New York City, we have to do the right thing by the City, by the people that live in New York City and by the horse and carriage industry. Thank you so much. Continue. Go ahead, sir.

(06:06:05)

Good afternoon, Chair and members of the Council. Thank you for the opportunity to speak in support of Int 0943-2026. My name is Dr. Jim Came. I am a veterinarian from South Dakota with 38 years of experience as a large animal vet. I am Director of Veterinary Science for the Center for your Main Economy. I practiced, conducted research and taught at three veterinary schools. Four years ago, I came to New York City to evaluate the carriage industry firsthand. I visited the stables, observed the horses that work in Central Park and on the highways, and spoke with both drivers and opponents. My conclusion was clear then and even clearer today: carriage horses should be phased out in Manhattan.

As has been said, horses are prey animals whose instinctive response to perceived danger is to flee. That instinct cannot be trained away or regulated away in one of the world's busiest urban environments, with constant traffic, sirens, construction and crowds. Heat, hard pavement, runaways and serious accidents are not anomalies — they are predictable. Horses evolved to graze on soft ground and live socially in herds, not to pull heavy carriages through congested streets and spend their nights confined alone in small stalls without turnout.

In December 2025, independent equine veterinarian Dr. Craig Kozlowski, who examined horses earlier today, examined more than 12 carriage horses. As you mentioned, they had multiple recurring musculoskeletal injuries, tendon and ligament disease, harness sores and dental disease. He concluded that several horses could not be certified fit for work because they refused standard trotting exams for lameness, and blood work was needed to detect possible pain-masking medications.

Finally, this is also a public safety issue. The tragic death of Roman, together with the numerous carriage accidents over the years that have been mentioned today, demonstrate the risk of placing a frightened, two-thousand-pound prey animal in the

(06:07:57)

middle of Manhattan traffic. For the welfare of these horses and the safety of the public, we urge you to pass this law. Thank you.

(06:08:11)

Thank you for holding this hearing. I am Susan Wagner, President of Equine Advocates, the nonprofit equine protection organization I founded 30 years ago. We operate from a 173-acre horse sanctuary in Chatham, New York, home to 82 horses, ponies, donkeys and mules, which included three former New York City carriage horses — all as a direct result of the cruel and inhumane work they were forced to do and the unnatural lives they were forced to lead pulling carriages in New York City.

The most famous of them was the late Bobby to Freedom, who would have died in a Canadian slaughterhouse if he had not been rescued. Bobby's story proved that New York City carriage horses are sent to slaughter. Bobby was shipped from a slaughter auction. His discharge report stated that he was overloaded with worms, was head-nodding, lame and underweight. Later at Cornell, he was diagnosed with chronic navicular bone disease and fractures from old injuries in both his front legs. Jack, who has been with us since 2016, was diagnosed with navicular disease, evidence of an old bone fracture and bilateral forelimb osteoarthritis. Sheena, who passed in 2023, was anemic, suffered from left limb lameness and hoof ligament disease.

A study by the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages, using information from the Health Department, documented that an average of 71 New York City carriage horses disappeared off the rolls every year over a seven-and-a-half-year period, for a total of 529 horses. Where did they go? We believe: presumed slaughter, presumed dead.

The Mamdani administration says it is progressive — a positive word indicating improvement and moving forward. In keeping with that progressive platform, I urge the new Mayor and the current City Council to allow New York City to finally join the growing number of cities globally and in the United States that have banned horse-drawn carriages. Thank you.

(06:10:16)

My name is Mel Volesky. I am a large animal emergency responder with a decade of experience rescuing horses who have been trapped in fires. I am also a founding member of the Coalition for Responsible Carriage Horse Retirement. I urge you to support Int 0943-2026 and pass Roman's Law.

In my work, the goal is the same: identify the hazard, understand the failure points and act before people or animals are hurt. I am not here evaluating one isolated incident. I am examining a pattern. No reform can make this industry safe because the inherent risk is not a gap in regulation — it is a horse's involuntary flight response. A horse's body is designed for sudden, explosive acceleration. It is the very reason horsepower became the standard metric for engines. When a horse perceives a threat, the fear response fires before the horse's brain has time to process what is happening. This is a reflex. Good training can build a horse's tolerance, but even the best trainers cannot erase survival instincts.

The union's proposed solution is to install hitching posts throughout Central Park. Hitching posts will not remove a horse's flight instinct. They add new layers of risk, creating dangerous conditions on public property that would be approved, installed and owned by the City. If a horse is hard-tied with no chance of breaking away, the restraint itself becomes the danger. This is a known, predictable and documented behavior. A panicked horse that cannot flee will continue to escalate its fear response, increasing the risk of catastrophic injury to anyone within the vicinity. If a horse is tied with a quick-release knot and can break away, it brings us to where we are today, mourning the unnecessary loss of Roman.

Additionally, I would just like to add that horses are the only grazing animal in Central Park, which is why Japanese yew is an issue for them and not for other animals, because a horse is a herbivore. A squirrel or a dog are carnivores. So while this plant may be toxic to species in general, how much they consume and what part of the plant is ingested needs to be taken into consideration, and the toxicology report on Roman's death... well, thank you.

(06:13:00)

Thank you. You got it. Thank you.

(06:13:03)

My name is Allison Bowling and I am the co-founder and Executive Director of Red Feather Equine Sanctuary and one of the founding members of the Coalition for Responsible Carriage Horse Retirement. I am here today to ask for your support of Roman's Law, Int 0943-2026.

There has been a lot of conjecture, so I am going to cut right to it, and that is: what will happen with the horses? You have heard repeated claims today that if Roman's Law passes, carriage horses will be abandoned, sent to auction and slaughtered. Those are very serious claims and we agree that they should be taken seriously. In fact, concern for these horses' future is exactly why our coalition was formed.

The reality is that horses can be sent to auction or slaughter under the status quo. Incidentally, we received a report from a partner rescue that a horse allegedly being described at the auction as a New York City carriage horse was sold through the notorious New Holland, Pennsylvania auction just last week. New Holland is, of course, a feeder sale into the Amish and slaughter pipeline. We have organized to help ensure that that does not happen here.

As you heard in the testimonies of our colleagues, our coalition is made up of now more than 30 nationally recognized equine rescue and sanctuary organizations with cumulatively hundreds of years of experience. Protecting vulnerable horses and preventing horses from entering the slaughter pipeline is not a new responsibility for us — that is our mission, that is why we exist.

And this is not simply a promise to "find homes." Importantly, I want to state that we are not here to forcibly take away anyone's horses. We are offering a coordinated retirement strategy. We have assembled a team to evaluate each horse individually, to coordinate placements, to maintain transparency and to work collaboratively with all stakeholders throughout the entire transition. We have attorneys prepared to develop lifelong placement agreements with oversight and follow-up protocols designed to help protect every horse long after it leaves New York City. We stand before you today and publicly commit to working with every carriage owner who wants a safe retirement for their horses. Thank you.

(06:15:18)

You created that opportunity and we are prepared to do the work. Thank you so much.

(06:15:29)

Hello.

(06:15:30)

Hi. My name is Jamie Baldanza. I am a documentarian on equine welfare, founder of a New Jersey horse sanctuary and co-founder of the Coalition for Responsible Carriage Horse Retirement, and a former New Yorker. I urge the Council to pass Roman's Law.

The hardest lesson horses have ever taught me is that just because you love them does not mean you understand them. When I was 18, I moved to New York and rode often at Claremont Stables near Central Park and a stable in Brooklyn, riding the same streets as the carriage horses. I understood why so many people saw them as part of the City's magic. I loved that magic too. Then I started to see the other side: the small stalls, little freedom to move, limited social contact and lives shaped around the demands of the City instead of the needs of a horse.

What would stay with me the most happened at the park entrance one day. The horse I was riding spooked at an umbrella. He bolted and I was thrown. Lying there with serious injuries, my first thought was not about myself. It was about whether Bingo had reached traffic — he or someone else could get seriously injured or die. Despite people pleading with me not to move, I got up and ran out after him. That moment changed the course of my life and it led

(06:16:44)

me to spend years rescuing horses and studying their behavior firsthand. As I evolved as a horsewoman and gained a better understanding of their behavior, I realized I should have recognized the signs. Bingo was already uneasy. It was a classic example of trigger stacking — his stress had been building long before the umbrella. By then, he had already absorbed the sirens, crowds, traffic and constant stimulation of New York City until he reached his threshold.

And for the Council, I remember CM Gennaro, who is no longer here, and as a self-proclaimed equestrian for 60 years, I am shocked that he does not know basic equine

(06:17:22)

behavior. He certainly has had the time to learn. Please pass Roman's Law. Thank you.

(06:17:27)

We have the gentleman at the end.

(06:17:30)

Yes, thank you very much. Good afternoon, Chair and members of the Council. My name is Marty Urbi. I am a many-time world champion equestrian, a horseman and past president of two different equine breed registries, and an advocate who has spent many years working to protect American equines through state and federal policy. I have devoted much of my life to this work and ask that you help us see the end of horse-drawn carriages in New York.

Horses are prey animals. They are flight animals. Biology and biomechanics are often overlooked on this issue. When they become frightened, they do not stop and reason through danger — they run. That instinct has allowed horses and other equines to survive for tens of thousands of years. Their natural instincts cannot be trained away. They can only be managed. Yet every day these horses are expected to navigate one of the busiest, loudest and most unpredictable urban environments in the world, surrounded by taxis, buses, construction, emergency sirens, crowds, bicycles and constant traffic. Even the calmest horse can be startled by something beyond anyone's control, and when that happens, the consequences can be devastating for the horse, the driver, the passengers and the public.

This is not about questioning the dedication of carriage drivers — many care deeply for their horses. We have heard that and we have seen that. This is about recognizing that New York City has changed, and our dedication and understanding of animal welfare in this modern era is quite different than it was several hundred years ago. Many other major cities have eliminated the use of horse-drawn carriages and replaced them with more modern transportation and entertainment, like electric carriages. Humans have forced those that were born to run free across open fields to spend their lives standing in traffic. That is not progress. It is a compromise that we no longer have to make.

Freedom applies to more than just humans. We all owe a debt of gratitude to horses and they should be respected, because America was built on their backs. I just want to add: the picture of President Washington up there today on his horse — we do not utilize horses in our military and we do not utilize them in war today. Why should we use them in a major city in this country? Thank you.

(06:19:36)

Thank you so much. CM Hanks has a question for the panel. Thank you,

(06:19:42)

Chair. For the folks affiliated with the sanctuaries, I wanted to hear if you could address the concern that was shared here that sanctuaries do not have the capacity, or that sanctuaries are not able to provide what we think will be the new

(06:20:02)

lifestyle for the horses. Well, that is a loaded question, but it is a good question, and I acknowledge that sanctuary capacity is certainly a concern.

(06:20:15)

So if you could maybe share how many folks work at the sanctuary and walk me

(06:20:20)

through what a day looks like. What our coalition represents is almost three dozen different sanctuaries across the country. So I could speak for my organization singularly, but when we are talking about capacity, we are thinking about dozens of different organizations nationwide.

(06:20:40)

And then yeah, I would love to hear just what is happening at the sanctuary you are

(06:20:44)

affiliated with. I am again co-founder of Red Feather Equine Sanctuary, and our core belief is that horses are not inherently defined by the work that they can do. What that means for us is that when they come through our doors, we treat them as we would treat a horse who could do that work, which means that they do actually get enrichment training. We have a trainer that comes to our facility once a week and does groundwork with the horses. We trailer them to her facility once a week so that they can maintain freshness in their training and learning skills. We participate in equine-assisted learning and equine therapy activities with the horses, so they are not just being thrown in a field and underutilized. We have simply learned to respect them for what their physical limits are and we have a different relationship with them. Thank you.

(06:21:36)

Okay, thank you. I appreciate the testimony from this panel. Thank you. Okay, next panel. Walker... I am sorry, my mistake. Walker Blankenship, something like that. Sorry. Clara Bright. Tommy... after him, Sang... and I think the last name is Jelani Loans.

(06:22:28)

Alone, or something like that — that is the last name.

(06:22:31)

First name Giovanni.

(06:22:32)

I think Natalie Honeck is here. That is it. I do not know who is who.

(06:23:02)

Right. Go ahead, you can start.

(06:23:10)

Good afternoon, Chair and honorable members of the Council. Thank you for the opportunity to... please identify yourself first.

(06:23:18)

Thank you. My name is Clara Bright and I respectfully submit this testimony in opposition to Int 0943-2026 and in support of Int 0970. I respectfully oppose Int 0943-2026 and support Int 0907 because the solution is not elimination — it is improvement.

"A nation that forgets its past has no future," widely attributed to Winston Churchill. Since 1858, horse-drawn carriages have been part of Central Park's history. As the Central Park Conservancy explains, Bridget Law and Olmsted and Calvert Vaux designed the park's carriage drive specifically for scenic travel by horse-drawn carriage. These horses are part of its original design and living heritage. If there are concerns, let us solve them — not eliminate a tradition that has served New York City for nearly 170 years.

If welfare is the goal, continue strengthening oversight, improve infrastructure, install additional hitching posts and pursue the development of modern stables in Central Park North. Some argue these horses would be better off in sanctuaries. However, relocation does not automatically guarantee a better life. These horses have been bred and trained over generations to work alongside humans and receive individualized daily care, specialized nutrition and professional farrier visits every four to five weeks. They need new shoes and regular hoof care — it is called hoof trimming. Not every sanctuary has the resources to provide the same level of individualized daily care that many working carriage horses currently receive.

(06:25:20)

Motor vehicles crash every day. When there is an incident involving a car, we investigate and improve. I need you to summarize. Yes, I have just

(06:25:29)

two more paragraphs. No, not two more paragraphs. Why does the standard differ here? Why these horses and why this industry? Improvement comes through better standards, not bans. The welfare of these horses deserves evidence-based decisions based on facts, not pictures. With that, I leave you with one final question: is banning truly protecting animal welfare, or is improving their care the better path?

(06:25:51)

Okay, thank you. You can submit what you have in writing. So who is next? Go ahead.

(06:25:59)

My name is Frank Riccobono. Good afternoon, Chair and members of the City Council. So yes, my name is Francesco Riccobono.

(06:26:06)

My family has probably been a part of the New York City horse-drawn carriage industry since 1979 — over 40 years.

(06:26:12)

Seven years ago, my father came to America, sir. Were you...? What is your name? Were you called to come up? I do not know. I submitted my tickets. Now is one of them first. Quality at... so it just kind of... we are going by panel, so you will have to wait. I am sorry. Tami Hughes. Well, Tommy is not here. Are you speaking on his behalf? I can. I submitted my tickets. Not all... we understand. I understand that. I understand that, but we are doing... we were working in panels now. So we did not call your name yet. So we cannot have you testify right this second because there is a method that we are using here.

(06:26:54)

So what now? So who has got... stones could have, you know, members of the Council. My name is Abdul. I am saying enough! And today I am representing my uncle. Named John. Sandy Nurse has been a proud... or scared of many in New York City for the last six years. So two years ago, I received a letter from the university the day I got accepted, but there was an obstacle in my way. My family could not provide the funds for my education and my dream was looking like it was flying away. At the moment of darkness, my uncle said that he will do anything to put me in the school and help me achieve my dream. And there was a question before: how about the American dream? I have an American dream. I want to go to college and study and my uncle is helping me to do that. He currently has two beautiful horses, Belle and Champion. Every day he is telling me that tens of hundreds of people stop by his horse to take pictures. New Yorkers love horse carriages. A lot of children come to Central Park to take pictures with his horses, to look at them, to pat them and to play with them. This is the picture of Champion, the beautiful white horse that he loves and cares about. He told me a story he told me to share with you. There is a lady, a resident of New York City. You do not...

(06:28:17)

...have that much time left, so you are going to have to either wrap it up or look ahead if the story is long. I cannot do...

(06:28:23)

...it? Yes. So the story about the lady, the resident of New York City. Every day she knows the schedule of Belle, the other horse of my uncle. She brings her children to Central Park and her children... his blood... you told about the people who do not want the horses in Central Park. But how about the voices of the people who want them in Central Park? There are tons of hundreds of people who want to see those horses in Central Park. They are loved and taken care of. All of these horse holders that you see, all of them love their horses. Their horses are beautiful creatures. All of them are like family members to them. And today I ask you to oppose this Bill. It would break a lot of families and would put a lot of people in shambles. Thank you very much.

(06:29:06)

Thank you. I am sorry. We will go back to you? Yep. Okay, okay, go for it. You will start over. Thank you. Okay.

(06:29:13)

Good afternoon, Chair, members of the City Council. My name is Francesca Riccobono. My family has probably been a part of New York City's horse carriage industry since 1979. Today I own three carriages. I care for and own 13 horses and I also am one of the founders of our 501(c)(6) organization, the Horse Carriage Alliance.

My father came to America from Sicily with nothing but a dream. He found that dream in New York City's horse-drawn carriage industry. Growing up, I did not watch my father work. I watched him dedicate his life to caring for his horses with love, patience and pride. Those horses shaped my childhood and inspired my future. They are not equipment or machines. They are my family.

Before I continue, I want to offer my heartfelt condolences to the family of Romanse. The tragic passing was heartbreaking. An entire industry continues to mourn alongside his loved ones. Our thoughts and prayers remain with them. That tragedy has only strengthened our commitment to improving safety. We are actively working with the Horse Carriage Alliance and members of the Council to implement stronger driving and training certification programs and enhance horse welfare, and so on, because protecting both people and horses has always been our highest priority.

That is why I respectfully ask you to oppose Int 0943-2026. This Bill does not solve a problem. It shuts down an industry that has been a part of New York City's identity for 168 years. It threatens the future of hardworking families, stable workers, fabulous drivers and countless others whose livelihoods depend on this profession. It also jeopardizes the futures of the horses we have devoted our lives to caring for. I personally spend approximately $40,000 a year per horse because their health and well-being comes first.

I am a newlywed father. I have two beautiful girls at home. The industry is how I support my family, just as it supported mine as a child. Like so many others, I have dedicated my life, my savings and my future to this profession because I truly believe in this industry. I will just wrap up with one more point. Changes are needed. Let us work together to make them. Please do not erase generations of honest hard work from people who have given their lives to this industry. Real progress comes from collaboration, compassion and thoughtful solutions, not from dismantling an entire community. Thank you.

(06:31:35)

No clapping in the chambers. Tommy... is he not here? I guess I could speak for the time. I will take his time. So my name is Joseph Carnegie.

(06:31:49)

Just find me... I ask you before. Did you sign up? You should have talked to me before you even come to bring a Bill up, because I am the original owner. My father was the owner of stables. I am surprised that you guys only consult us. I am a lawyer. I am a politician. I am a radio announcer, a host. And you do not want me and you are just doing this today. It is not about the horses. It is about the property. When I started this business, a few years ago there was prostitution, pimps and drugs on 38th Street. It did not even exist. They came afterwards. Now everybody is a slave over here. These people are working for the New York class and Steve... that is the people that they are working for and you guys are part of the conspiracy. If you allow this man to take you for a ride, he is paying politicians, he is paying everybody else. Okay, he has been cited for violation of the election law and therefore he should be reprimanded, not rewarded. That is what is going on right now. You guys are rewarding this guy. You are working for him. We have to maintain decorum so lower your voice. Hey, you have got to understand that. Just, you know, I... as a lawyer, as a politician, as a radio announcer, I do like to speak and you did not consult me at all. We have two stables, okay? And that is why I think in a way that is... now, because I asked you to maintain decorum and you would not, so that is...

(06:33:23)

Fine. Whose... Vallone or... is that you? Sorry, sir. You should be ashamed... stop! Stop! Okay? Enough. Sarah, go ahead, sir. Go ahead.

(06:34:11)

Good afternoon. My name is Joann Neveralone. I am the second generation of a family of carriage owners and drivers. My father started 65 years ago and I continue with the happiness and with the principles we were raised with: respect my horse and respect the customers. I see all my customers happy getting out from the carriage. I know about horses a lot because for 37 years I have been in this business. I am the last member of the family, with my cousin actually, who has 30 years in this business. We have always respected everything. We try to respect all the rules and follow the rules. I told the people, and also I think I...

(06:34:57)

...want to say, three years ago I was a promoter of a parade by Opus Dei with seven Sicilian cars and seven New York horses that did a really great job. We were... a lot of big cities in the United States were jealous of what we did in New York because it was a big thing. Seven horses from New York and seven Sicilian cars, they came all the way from Ragusa... if you check, that is the base where they always do the Sicilian carts. I do not know if you have ever heard about it. I also want to ask you to please save our business or try to help us, you know. After five years for a family, it is a little bit kind of hard. Okay. Thank you.

(06:35:49)

Natalie. Good afternoon, Chair. Thank you for this opportunity. My name is Natalie Riccobono and I am the spouse of a horse and carriage owner. I want to offer first my deepest condolences to the Mahajan family, as we too are grieving this tragic incident. As a mother of two daughters, I am feeling the pain as we sit here today and I am so sorry.

In all the years of knowing my husband and my father-in-law, I have witnessed two hardworking and dedicated men striving to provide for our family and their colleagues alike. My husband has always put his horses before anything else and works on his days off to check on his horses. I continue to witness my husband's passion in this business like no other. He started a not-for-profit association to improve things, holding meetings every Monday, which include conversations of horse safety, training and improving opportunities.

E-bikes, school buses, subway trains, et cetera, et cetera, all have accidents. So should we ban them all or only allow pedestrians to walk on City streets? We have been blessed with the opportunity to live the American dream because of this industry. I beg you, please do not put my family on the streets. My husband's dedication, along with his drivers and all the horses he has dedicated his whole life to... let us look for other opportunities that will benefit all sides and the future for all involved. Thank you for hearing me out.

(06:37:25)

Thank you very much. I just want to address something very quickly that the previous gentleman talked about in terms of consulting. That is what today is about. It is a hearing, consulting with the public. We are consulting with all sides. We started at 10 o'clock this morning and we expect to go very late into this evening so we can hear what everybody has to say. That is how we are doing the consulting on this. So I just want to make that point. All right, thank you. Thank you, everybody.

Okay, next panel. I think it is Gabriel Schaefer, Erik Schaefer, Paola Gavino and Gabriel Stuber. Is everybody here that I called? No, does not look like it. Okay. Do we have to... yeah. Ollie Jones, Catalina Toro, Sally Boyer. Okay, three more. See if they can find those names. All right. All right, why do you not guys start and just say your name and then your testimony.

(06:39:45)

Microphone, microphone. I am the founder and executive director of Tamerlane Sanctuary and Preserve. We are the only farm sanctuary in the state of New Jersey that is accredited by the Global Federation of Farm Sanctuaries. I was surprised to hear testimony today from somebody else on one of the prior panels that they were almost killed by a horse in Central Park. I also had that experience. I grew up riding horses in California. I rode a western saddle. I came to New York. I took dressage lessons at Claremont Stables. I rented a horse. I went into the park. The horse was spooked by a photographer and that horse took off running. I was terrified that I was going to die or that I was going to kill somebody else. I managed to jump off the horse in front of the horse to stop it from running and the horse reared up and could have hit me on the head. I grabbed the reins and I was able to walk that horse back.

But that is just two people at Claremont Stables in this room. How many other people did that happen to? Horses are not meant to be in the city. The thing that I am concerned about here is that the retirement of the carriage horses only matters if it is truly permanent. My fear is that these horses will be retired to places that are not true sanctuaries. So I am glad that there are people on this panel who are here to oversee that. A horse should not leave the carriage industry and disappear into a system where it can be sold, transferred, auctioned or eventually end up in the slaughter pipeline.

Retirement should mean lifelong protection. Just because a horse is trained to work does not mean that the horse wants to work. I grew up riding stable horses and all they did was try to get you off of their back. They did not enjoy the experience of being ridden. If these horses are retired, they deserve placement in a legitimate, accredited sanctuary that exists solely for the welfare of the animals, not facilities where ownership can change and horses once again become commodities. There are dozens... I need to wrap it up. There are accredited sanctuaries across the country and I myself have been involved in rescues of thousands of animals where sanctuaries across the country have absorbed them. So there are homes for these horses. There are good sanctuaries for them to go to. Thank you.

(06:42:18)

Thank you. Just state your name first, please.

(06:42:21)

My name is Paula... and I am also here as a board member of Tamerlane Sanctuary, where we take care of rescue animals, including horses. But I am also here as an immigrant, so I am going to speak Spanish a little bit. I will translate because my testimony is somehow connected to my experience as an immigrant.

[Spanish testimony.]

...coming to this country and looking for better opportunities, working hard to build a better life. But precisely because of that, I believe all immigrant workers deserve better, safe jobs with stable futures. Many of these carriage workers do not have that. They do not have guaranteed salary, benefits, employment insurance, health care or workers compensation if they get injured. They are classified as independent contractors rather than protected employees. The transition proposed here offers them jobs with real protections. So at the sanctuary... okay, I am going to wrap it up. Horses are not machines. They deserve to be retired. We do not have to choose between immigrant workers and protecting the animals. We should protect them both. So please pass this Bill. Thank you.

(06:44:40)

Thank you very much. Okay, so now I am going to recall some of the names called before. If they are not here... Gabriel Stewart. I... I am sorry. Grace Choi. Is Grace Choi here? Terror Lauren Clini... look, Marie... call... less... right? Kirk Miller. Lange. I am sorry. What? Oh, okay. How long? Which one? The last person. Cindy. Cindy Finch. I am sorry. What was your name again? I am sorry.

(06:45:23)

Okay, go ahead. I am sorry.

(06:45:28)

Hi there. My name is Lange and I am a resident of New York City and an animal advocate. So this is just the facts. Horses were a necessary mode of transportation prior to the twentieth century. They no longer are. Prior to the twentieth century, horses were not breathing in the exhaust from cars, dodging traffic, nor...

(06:45:49)

...in danger of colliding with automobiles. Horses do this so-called work because they are forced to, as has always been the case, not out of choice. In spite of what we think we know about horses, there is not one person who can say with absolute certainty that the horses are content pulling a 900 to 1,500 pound carriage, which is then loaded with passengers, whether that be on a temperate day or through the heat, cold, snow and rain. Regulations are not often followed, monitored or enforced.

Due to a more highly evolved sense of smell, sight and hearing, horses can and do get triggered by sights, sounds and smells which are imperceptible to humans but which signal danger to them. This means they can and do bolt unexpectedly, putting themselves, the driver and any passengers or pedestrians in harm's way. While carriage drivers need and deserve to work like everyone, neither they nor anyone else can count on permanent job security. Industries change and so do consumer preferences. All of us need to adapt to that reality. If any visitors to New York are missing the carriage ride, our great City has a plethora of things to see, activities to engage in and opportunities to make lasting memories.

The horses, however, will not get over the wear and tear on their bodies that this industry engenders. Those humans injured or killed when horses bolt or collide with cars or pedestrians will not soon get over their losses. Not all traditions deserve to continue. Traditions are created by people and can be changed by people. When a tradition harms an animal or a person, it must end. The horse-drawn carriage industry in New York is one tradition that needs to be put out to pasture. Thank you.

(06:47:39)

Thank you very much. Okay, so thank you to this panel. Really appreciate it. Now I am going to call up John D. Leonardo and Sam Moon, I think it is. Are they here? Okay. Go ahead. Just state your name for the record.

(06:48:16)

Sam Moon: OK, go ahead. To the Chair, members of the City Council, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Sam Moon and I am the Executive Director of Catskill Animal Sanctuary, located just a few miles north, or two hours north of New York City. On behalf of our organization, I am here to express our strong support for Int 0943-2026.

Every day we care for rescued horses and other farm animals who have found safety, peace and lifelong refuge at our sanctuary. That experience has given us a deep understanding of what horses need to thrive: space to move freely, predictable surroundings and an environment where they can express their natural behaviors without the constant stress of traffic, noise and congestion. New York streets simply cannot provide those conditions.

Horses are intelligent and sensitive animals and even the calmest, best-trained horses, as you have heard today, can be startled by sirens, construction and crowds. When this happens, the risk extends beyond the horse to carriage operators, passengers, cyclists and pedestrians. As a sanctuary, we believe our responsibility is to provide animals with environments that support their welfare rather than ask them to adapt to conditions that compromise it. We can acknowledge the role horses have played in our history while embracing a future that does not require them to work in one of the busiest environments in the world. For the welfare of our horses and the safety of our public, we respectfully urge the Council to pass Int 0943-2026. Thank you for your consideration.

(06:49:52)

John DeLeonardo: Good afternoon. Can you hear me? All right, great. Good afternoon. My name is John DeLeonardo. I am an anthrozoologist and the Executive Director of Humane Long Island, serving every borough and performing much of New York City's farmed and exotic animal rescue. This law exists because the status quo has already claimed too many victims. We lost Ryder. We lost Denise. We lost 18-year-old Roman Mahajan.

The question before the Council is whether those tragedies will finally lead to meaningful change. Today you have heard from many proponents of the carriage horse industry and possibly still you will hear from fellow Long Islander Dr. Kamillah, urging you to trust that this industry can regulate itself. For that trust, the carriage horse industry has repeatedly refused to allow its horses to be examined by independent veterinarians. Instead, it asks this Council to rely on veterinarians like Dr. Sierra, who also serves as the NYPD's veterinarian. Dr. Sierra has been disciplined repeatedly by New York State regulators. The New York State Gaming Commission sanctioned him at least seven times and banned him from the horse track twice in matters involving falsified health certificates, fraud, corruption and administering medication to a racehorse he never examined.

In 2020, the New York State Board for Veterinary Medicine also found him guilty of professional misconduct for failing to properly document the examination and treatment of a horse, resulting in a two-year suspended stay of his veterinary license. When an industry refuses independent veterinary examinations while asking policymakers to rely on a veterinarian with that disciplinary history, transparency is absent and public confidence is impossible.

This law provides a responsible path forward. It phases out horse-drawn carriages, protects carriage horses by prohibiting their sale for slaughter or transfer to another carriage operation, and establishes a workforce development program to help affected workers transition to new employment. I respectfully urge you to pass this law. Thank you.

(06:52:11)

Thank you both very much, appreciate it. OK, next panel. Nicole Grieving, Daniel Reed, Shampa Chaplis, I am not sure. OK, Alberto Jersey, and Eleanor Quite. Nope. Read the first one more time. Nicole Grieving, Danielle, very Chaplis, Alberto, Jersey and Eleanor Quite. OK, so just state your name for the record and go ahead.

(06:53:07)

Nicole Rivard from Friends of Animals. We were founded in New York in 1957.

(06:53:17)

What? Oh my God. I will state my name for the record. Are we good? Hi, I am Nicole Grieve, like proof, sorry, but with these instead of...

(06:53:35)

I am a New Yorker. I am a horse lover. I am a former horse owner and I have watched real estate interests try to kill the carriage industry for decades now. At first they were honest about the reason: they want the land that the stables are on for development. As that was not popular with average New Yorkers, they changed tactics, pouring a lot of money into pushing the idea that carriage work is inhumane. It is not. Equine experts who have inspected the horses and stables have said over and over that they are well cared for and protected by City regulations. Carriage work is not cruel and it is a lifeline for Amish farm horses and ex-racetrack trotters.

There are horses in those West Side stables now who might have spent their last hours in terror, bound for a slaughterhouse, if not for the carriage industry taking them in. As someone who has rescued a horse myself when its stable in Queens abruptly closed, I know from experience how hard and how expensive it is to provide a home for unwanted horses. The carriage industry gives these unwanted horses a chance to live a long life. This is the truth. On top of that, it offers union jobs. It has worked for immigrants and it is a beautiful and irreplaceable part of the park.

If this were truly about noise and pollution and crowds and horses as prey animals who, when spooked, bolt, if this were truly about that, the anti-carriage activists would also be protesting in front of the NYPD stables and bullying the mounted police, because those horses work much harder in much busier areas than the carriage

(06:55:12)

horses do. But they do not, because the truth is both police horses and carriage horses can live and work and thrive in a city. But only the carriage horses stand between the real estate people making more money than they even need. This Bill was never about what is best for horses. It is about rich people taking something that is not theirs. It is a message to the elite of the City that they can take whatever they want if they just spend enough money and spread enough...

(06:55:39)

Can you please summarize.

(06:55:40)

Thank you.

(06:55:40)

My summary is that I am asking you to pass Int 0943-2026 instead. The real estate people have had a few decades now lying about the carriages. Please give the drivers a little time to show the truth of what they do before you take away their livelihoods and the lives of the horses they love and care for. I thank you so much for your time.

(06:55:59)

Thank you. Next person, just identify yourself and then give your testimony.

(06:56:07)

Leonora Quadrosi. OK.

(06:56:09)

I am a student of an equine studies program, soon to graduate. I have been working with horses for over 10 years and riding for almost 20. I am in opposition to this Bill. This is biomechanically an easier job for a horse to perform than that of being ridden and this is one of the most regulated industries for horses anywhere in the world. In fact, telling some of my professors and classmates the amount of regulations that horses here are made to follow is something that actually shocks a lot of people, because they do not believe that there are so many rules that horses have to follow here.

I strongly believe that the Bill presented today is the first step in severing a human-animal bond that has existed for thousands of years. These are domesticated horses. They are not ones that can easily just go into a pipeline of not working anymore and this will lead to the discontinuation of certain breeds, such as draft horses and standardbreds, that were created to do this type of work, although it is much easier than the work they were originally created to do when the industry began.

This is a very painfully vague Bill and we have no guarantee that once these horses leave the City they will be able to continue the proper care that they have received under the watchful eye of New York City. While a lot of the people sitting here today mean well, there is no way that we would be able to tell what is going on with these horses.

I have been a part of an independent study for my degree program talking specifically about stables and had the task of laying out exactly how to ensure good welfare for horses that exist inside the City. It is possible, and not only possible, but the surrounding community can be a part of it as well. Not only do we have respect for the horses in the park, but we do not have bikes and other things running all around them causing spooking accidents, which have increased. I ask that this is not the Bill that is supported, but rather the one introduced by CM Gennaro, so that we do not go further away from the natural world than we already have and that we remember that we do share this world with other species and not just ourselves. New York City does not have to only be for people but can coexist with horses as well as the other animals that exist here. Thank you.

(06:58:36)

Thank you very much. Thank you both. A couple of things. One is that if people want to testify, we have a ton more people to testify, so several hours of testimony. If you want to submit testimony, you can. You have up to 72 hours after the end of this hearing to do so and you can do it at testimony.council.nyc.gov. We look at every single piece. We have actually had people submit testimony already earlier this week knowing that there was a hearing today. Every single piece of testimony is going to be looked at and reviewed and put into a report, so I just want to let folks know that is an option.

Also, if there is anybody here that still wants to testify and has not filled out one of these cards, please see one of the sergeants and do so. OK, so now I am going to call Joel, Drew McCormick, Emily, Deborah Thomas, Nicolien Von. Thank you. Three people. OK, just state your name for the record, please.

(07:00:25)

Hello. My name is Drew McCormick. OK.

(07:00:32)

Thank you.

(07:00:33)

Hello. My name is Drew McCormick. I represent Animal Defenders International and our New York City supporters, to urge you to please pass Int 0943-2026 to phase out horse-drawn carriages. This Bill was renamed Roman's Law. He was killed while trying to save his mother, who was stuck in a carriage pulled by a horse that had become spooked. We are all very incredibly sorry for this family's loss. We hope this Bill can prevent such tragic losses from ever happening again.

Subjecting horses to the intense working conditions of pulling carriages in the City has proven to be a serious public safety issue. Mistreating animals causes unacceptable pain, fear and distress to the animals, which also increases the risk of them panicking and trying to escape, which poses a risk to the public as well as to the animals themselves. These horses are forced to work even if they are exhausted, fearful and when their bodies need rest. That is why this Bill was previously named Ryder's Law, after one of the many horses who collapsed and died from pulling carriages in the City. The horses work in extreme heat, breathe exhaust fumes and navigate traffic. It terrifies them, risking injuries to both horses and people. Recent accidents have proven the danger is real.

This is not a tradition worth preserving. It is cruelty to animals and a public risk that we can end today. This Bill previously died in this committee due to concerns about eliminating jobs for the drivers. Although the drivers deserve to make a living, this should not be at the expense of the horses or at the risk of the public. Furthermore, this Bill does not immediately ban horse-drawn carriages and therefore provides more time for drivers to find alternative employment. For example, the electronic carriage business could replace horses. We heard comments earlier about how these people could work in government and agencies. Therefore, we urge you to pass this Bill and ban horse-drawn carriages in the City. Thank you.

(07:02:31)

Thank you very much. Next, identify yourself and then give your testimony. Sorry.

(07:02:37)

Good afternoon. My name is Nicolien Von Think and I am a resident of New York City. I was born on a horse farm in northern Virginia and I have been riding since age four. I strongly support Int 0943-2026, Roman's Law, to end horse-drawn carriages in New York City. I have seen happy, healthy carriage horses growing up in northern Virginia and the horses that I have seen in Central Park are not that. Several years ago, I saw with my own eyes a carriage collapse onto a horse's hind legs. The horse screamed like a child and several men chaotically tried to free him, one man pulling at the reins while another pushed him down. They were unable to lift the carriage because he was harnessed to it and caught in it. This is what happens when you put a half-ton prey animal in city traffic with no way to escape.

Two years ago, I was walking into Central Park and one of the horses caught my attention. I pet his neck. He did not react at all. His ears, a horse's primary way of engaging with the world, hung completely slack to either side. In 28 years around healthy horses I had never

(07:03:46)

seen that before. It is a trauma response, total dissociation from sustained physical and emotional distress. Many people have testified today that they care deeply for their horses. So why is Central Park so full of emaciated, exhausted, slack-eared horses with cracked hooves? New York is not being asked to do something untested. This is one of the most modern cities in the world. We should be leading, not trailing. Again, I urge the Committee on Health to vote yes and move Int 0943-2026 into a full Council vote.

(07:04:25)

Thank you. Thank you very much. Next, state your name and then give your testimony.

(07:04:31)

I am Deborah Thomas, speaking in support of Int 0943-2026. I am one of the many animal-loving, humane New York City animal advocates who have been fighting for a carriage horse ban in this City because I feel that having nineteenth-century horse-drawn carriages in twenty-first-century New York City traffic is both inhumane to the horses and very dangerous to all of us. Sadly, both were shown to be true when the horse Denise ate a poisonous plant and died in Central Park and 18-year-old tourist Roman Mahajan was killed. My heart and prayers go out to his family.

As stated earlier, New York City and Central Park have become busier and noisier in the twenty-first century. Although horse carriages in the City were once a quaint and enjoyable tradition, present-day activities and sounds going on in New York City can easily spook a horse and cause them to bolt and run at the drop of a hat, making it extremely dangerous and irresponsible to continue this industry any longer. No amount of hitching posts in the park or carriage horse driver training sessions will ever stop this from happening.

I also feel that it is downright cruel to force an animal to pull a heavy carriage in the extreme heat and humidity or in the cold, snow and ice that they are often expected to work in, and it is questionable as to whether they are given sufficient water in the summer or blankets and shelter from the cold in the winter while they are pulling these carriages. Therefore, for the sake of the horses and human beings alike, I respectfully urge the City Council to vote for and pass Int 0943-2026, Roman's Law, as soon as possible. I also want to thank Speaker Menin and Chair Schulman for calling this hearing and all the members who have voted for it, as well as thank you for putting language in the Bill to help the carriage drivers transition to new jobs.

(07:06:46)

Thank you. Thank you all. So we are going to call a new panel. Thank you very much and thank you for waiting. Maddie Johnson, Eva... I am probably pronouncing it wrong, I am sure. Patrick Norton, Christina Tobacco, something like that, Tobaccan. Caroline Zonis and Regina Clark. OK, so state your name for the record and then you can testify. Who is going first? Go

(07:07:36)

ahead. Wait, we have to put the button on. Eva, OK. Go ahead, Eva.

(07:07:42)

Thank you very much for just hearing me. I am speaking in support of Int 0943-2026. I am a New Yorker, born and raised in Brooklyn, currently in the district. I have been a trauma therapist for 40 years. For 20 of those years I have been an equine-assisted psychotherapist, meaning that I incorporate horses in psychotherapy with clients. Primarily that work has been with combat veterans. In this work I have seen firsthand how horses depend on their senses and their ability to flee perceived danger to stay safe and regulated. We work with a herd of horses at liberty, meaning no halters, no lead lines, no harnesses or any other means of control or domination, and in all these years we have had no injuries to people and no injuries to horses. None.

Horses survive by using their senses to detect danger. Their nearly 360-degree vision, highly sensitive hearing and acute sense of smell are adaptations that allow them to identify potential threats and to react quickly. In Manhattan, those same senses are constantly bombarded by sirens, jackhammers, buses, motorcycles, dense crowds, exhaust fumes, flashing lights and nonstop unpredictable movement. A horse pulling a carriage cannot move freely away from what it perceives as a threat. This conflict between instinct and environment creates an inherent safety risk that no amount of training can eliminate. It is a public safety concern, and protecting the public is one of the City Council's core responsibilities.

Horse-drawn carriages belonged to a different era of New York City's history. Today we know far more about equine behavior and public safety than we did a century ago. We cannot train away millions of years of evolution, and we should not ask horses to ignore instincts that have kept their species alive. The question before you...

(07:09:56)

You have got to summarize. Sorry.

(07:09:57)

I am almost finished. The question before the City Council is not whether some horses can be trained to tolerate parts of this work, or whether better regulations can reduce the risk to horses and citizens. The question is whether New York City is an appropriate place to ask horses to do work their biology is not built to withstand, while also putting pedestrians, drivers, joggers and the horses at risk.

(07:10:24)

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Next, state your name and then give your testimony. Is the button on? Yes. Okay, I am Maddie...

(07:10:31)

...a lifelong animal welfare advocate, a tri-racial multilingual New Yorker, a legal immigrant and citizen like our mayor, and professionally an architect, landscape architect and urban planner who has lived and worked in several countries across the world. For those who say horse carriages are a part of old tradition: well, there was a time that flogging, beheading, drawing and quartering and several methods of torture were also tradition. So do we keep those and bring the guillotine back? And chamber pots — we knew of indoor plumbing and we evolved. It is 2026. There are far more ecological, sustainable and humane alternatives for tourist transport.

This is for the promising young man who lost his life due to this archaic, outdated industry, which has no place in this century in this busy city, when so many other cities in Europe, the United States and Asia have banned this. It is beyond cruel to the horses, as several other panelists have pointed out. But if not even for compassion, merely from a safety perspective, this practice should be banned. For the ones defending this practice, it means the loss of life of a young man does not matter to you. Would you feel the same if the victim was one of your own kin and not a young man from South Asia? Roman — I will pronounce the name correctly — the proponents' representation of your kind of immigrant, the whataboutisms, comparing the deaths to car accidents, even a poisonous plant, are ridiculous. I saw a display of gaslighting, lies, full-on projections, Machiavellian manipulation, sociopathy and above all the tactic of deny, attack, reverse victim and offender from the defenders of this obsolete, vicious practice. Evolve. Speak the truth, not lies.

So proponents of horse abuse, please get off your high horses. Just like cat and dog holders claim they love animals while abusing their riding horses to death and then sending them off to slaughter — that is selfish narcissism, not love for the horses. The City has several jobs with far better benefits that can absorb those who leave the industry. The table is open, please...

(07:12:35)

Please summarize.

(07:12:35)

If Roman's Just Law does not get passed, I am still going to hope that someday New York will truly ban this barbaric industry. Thank you so much to the caucus and to all the Council members who choose logic, compassion and common...

(07:12:46)

...sense. Thank you. Next is Shukria... about mercy. Thank you very much. You are Patrick?

(07:12:52)

Okay, great. Yes.

(07:12:52)

Hello. My name is Patrick Norton and I am a long-term...

(07:12:56)

...resident of the Upper West Side. I live next to the 72nd Street entrance where I walk my dog every day, and I am here to testify about what I have seen all too many times. Over the past decade I have seen horses when it is over 90 degrees, horses when it is below freezing, horses left unattended, horses going up and down 72nd Street, horses going up and down Central Park West, including at the incredibly busy intersection. I have also seen runners and bikers almost crashing into horses, as well as dogs barking and lunging at the horses. Sometimes these dogs are even off-leash and the horses are understandably startled.

(07:13:35)

I have also witnessed too many close calls with horses and carriages losing control. If this madness continues, it is only a matter of time until there is another rider killed. You have the opportunity to end this. You have the opportunity to prevent future cruelty, injury and death. Please vote yes on Roman's Law. Otherwise the next tragedy, the next death, the next time blood is spilt, will be on your hands.

(07:14:04)

Thank you so much. Thank you to this panel, really appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, next panel. Kathy Nozari — here? Not here. Yes. Okay. Danny Morton... Donnie Moss. Okay. Let me get... American Museum of Natural History... I cannot read the name. Laura Leah Pardo. Paisley and Bailey. No.

(07:14:56)

All right, Donnie, go ahead. My name is Donny Moss. I made the documentary film "Blinders: The Truth Behind the Tradition" about the horse-drawn carriage controversy. I would like to start by saying that when CM Gennaro was not busy belittling us for engaging in this civic right that we have, in an extremely unprofessional manner, he made our argument for us. He said that when you see horses outside of the city they are invariably grazing on a pasture. New York City has no pasture. Grazing is a fundamental instinct of any horse. New York City has no pasture where these horses can graze, run, roll, interact physically as herd animals do, or move about freely. And to add insult to injury, these horses see pastures every day that they cannot even access.

The lack of a pasture in and of itself should be a reason why we do not have horse-drawn carriages in Manhattan. To Roman's family: the City knew that this would happen, because for the past 20 years we have been shouting from the rooftops and from inside these Council Chambers, and we have said explicitly that a child is going to fly out of a moving carriage, land on the pavement and die. City officials chose politics ahead of public safety. Roman is a victim of political expediency. Mr. and Mrs. Maha, watching — please know that we tried. We have been trying for years.

On a final note: now that more people understand that no amount of regulation can stop a spooked horse from bolting and killing someone, I would love to know what the City Council and the Department of Health will do to prevent harm between now and when this law takes effect. What is the City Council going to do to protect tourists inside of the carriages...

(07:17:06)

...and pedestrians, runners and bicyclists who could get trampled by a spooked horse who bolts and runs uncontrollably through Central Park? Thank you.

(07:17:16)

Thank you very much, Donnie. Appreciate it. Next. Good afternoon. I am Kathy Mazari of Lights Out Coalition. Thank you for allowing me to testify in support of Int 0943-2026, Roman's Law.

(07:17:29)

These are the only horse-drawn carriages not yet obsolete and yet still forced to work in conditions unsuited to their welfare. Reports of collapses, injuries, illegal working conditions and deaths on City streets have continued for years. Advocates warned it would take a human death before this business finally ended. Tragically, that prediction came true when a promising young man named Roman lost his life. My heart goes out to him and his family. They should never have endured such a devastating loss or been forced to become advocates for change.

Change is a reality of life. How many of us have had to find new employment at some point? When ride-share services transformed the taxi industry, my own father's immigrant family's medallion lost its value. There was no bailout. They adapted. History is filled with occupations that disappeared, and workforce transitions are increasingly common. If we cannot manage this one, how will we respond when more than half a million local jobs predicted to be lost to AI disappear? We cannot justify continuing a dangerous, outdated practice simply because people do not like change. The carriage drivers have union representation and a pathway to retraining and new jobs. Their union is well positioned to help them and should.

Roman's death must not become another tragedy that is acknowledged and then forgotten. The fundamental right to life must always take precedence over commercial interests. Business must never come at the cost of living beings. I respectfully urge the Council to pass Int 0943-2026 without delay and get these poor horses off the streets now.

And if I may, Chair Schulman, I wanted to respond to a question that came up earlier. Someone asked about NYPD hiring horse caregivers or caretakers, and according to their website the NYPD frequently hires dedicated civilian staff to care for their horses. They work directly in the department stables and are responsible for feeding, grooming, cleaning stalls and assisting the mounted unit. Thank...

(07:20:03)

...you very much. All right. Next.

(07:20:08)

My name is Laura Leah Pardo and I live in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn. I urge the Committee to pass Roman's Law, Int 0943-2026. I grew up in Chicago, which ended its horse-drawn carriage rides, as have many major cities around the world, because they have recognized that this industry is no longer viable in dense urban environments. I do appreciate that Int 0943-2026 recognizes the livelihoods of carriage workers by providing workforce transition assistance. That makes this legislation both compassionate and reasonable. I had originally planned to present every documented carriage accident from the past two decades to illustrate the ongoing dangers of this industry, but there...

(07:20:52)

...are simply way too many to fit into two minutes. But the record does include runaway horses, collisions with taxis, buses, bicycles, pedestrians, parked cars and other vehicles. As has been said, no amount of regulation can eliminate the inherent risk of horses operating in New York City as prey animals. As has been said, horses can panic and bolt unpredictably.

Here are just a few examples from the most recent past. Horses have bolted into midtown traffic on multiple occasions. Passengers have been forced to jump from runaway carriages multiple times. Horses have crashed into signs and parked vehicles multiple times. Carriages have overturned several times. Drivers have been injured and hospitalized. Then, as we all know, came June 17th — 18-year-old Roman, who was killed after a horse bolted. After years of warnings and repeated accidents, the tragedy that so many feared finally occurred. We cannot say this was unforeseeable. The warning signs had been there for years. It was the culmination of a long pattern of increasingly serious incidents that the City turned a blind eye to. Passing Int 0943-2026 is an opportunity for New York City to lead with compassion, responsibility and common sense. It will protect horses, support the workers through a fair transition and, most importantly, protect the...

(07:22:23)

...public. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you to this panel. I appreciate it. I am going to call a name I called before — Chris Ramirez. Is that person here? Oh, you are here. Okay, great. Let me give you the microphone. Go ahead.

(07:22:50)

Ah, yes. Give yourself a second. Yeah, okay.

(07:22:53)

I know you guys have had a very long day and I see everybody's attention...

(07:22:57)

...dwindling — people on their phones, people conversing — and I really hope that I get your attention when I say this. I found it very disrespectful to hear, in a case about horses, that a Council member who is no longer even here would say "forget about the horse, it is already dead" and that he would not hear anything that any of us have to say. Others want to speak about alternate means of transport and compare Amazon trucks, bikes, trains, planes and cars to living sentient beings — not any of the other things mentioned — and that is the pretense of our objection. So many drivers treat these horses in the same indignant manner.

Most of us grew up romanticizing the idea of horse and carriages. We normalized it as a part of the background of the city. But the reality is that for these horses, it has been decades of cruelty and neglect. With the introduction of video cameras and camera phones in society, along with undercover investigations, countless videos are now at the forefront of what this is really about. We begin with their homes — the coffin-sized stables with not even enough space to turn around or lie down in, rat-infested, with no heat. These horses freeze throughout the winter or swelter in the summer with no relief and limited ventilation. And contrary to what one of the testimonies said, you cannot in fact openly visit one of these stables. There is no open access. I am sorry, I am losing you guys again. I will wait.

(07:24:24)

Thank you. Thank you very much. We really appreciate it. And just, you know, for the record, I was pushing back on anybody that was out of decorum up here.

(07:24:35)

I understand. I have been doing that the whole day today. I understand.

(07:24:39)

So no, I just... I was not able to finish because I feel like I lost everyone's attention and I still have...

(07:24:45)

...10 seconds here, and I want to address the painful metal bars in their mouths and the many videos that have surfaced of drivers yanking at the attachments of the bridle, causing extreme pain for these docile animals.

(07:24:56)

Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, next panel. Lisa Goldberg — Miss Goldberg here? That is you. Okay. Tilly the Clown. Zach... borrowed tenfold. Ian, I think it is. Zach? No. Okay. Margaret Lee. No. Okay, wait. Give me one second. Sorry. Melody Tim or something to that effect. Ah, no. Okay. Marion Koenig. Koenig? Lynda Mann — here? Melanie. Okay...

(07:26:07)

...so from my right, go left. Go ahead, just state your name for the record and then go into the testimony. Linda Mann. Okay, go ahead.

(07:26:19)

Chair Schulman and members of the Committee that are still here — I know some of you have already made up your minds and nothing I can say will change that. But I was brought up to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves, and today I will speak for those whose world is shaped by constant noise, crowds, traffic and stress. For those who are forced to live in an unnatural environment for their species. For those who never feel the natural ground beneath them. And for those who go back to enclosures that never come close to meeting their needs.

This is an industry built on confinement. Whether in the park or in their stalls, walk by a hack line and see the sad, defeated look in those eyes. Then go to a sanctuary where they feel safe — probably for the first time in their lives — where they are given adequate space and allowed to live free from exploitation and abuse, where these sensitive social herd animals are allowed to live naturally. See the difference in those eyes.

I am a big believer in the concept of: once you know, you can no longer say you did not know. This is where we are now. You all know the danger. We saw it in real time. The world saw it in real time. And there was a family in India who lived it in real time. This hearing brings us one step closer to a City safe from that happening again. It brings us one step closer to giving these magnificent beings the freedom they deserve. For years they have been waiting for us to step in and end their suffering. They have waited far too long.

(07:28:04)

Thank you. Thank you very much. All right, applause — good.

(07:28:10)

Hi, my name is Tilly the Clown. I am a drag entertainer here in New York City, and I felt that with the very rich history that queer people have in standing up for human and animal rights, I figured, why not represent my community. So I sit before you today as a drag entertainer in the greatest city in the world, an artist who benefits greatly from the tourism that sustains our nightlife, and I am grateful for that.

There is a glaring, archaic contradiction in our City. When I left Philadelphia 14 years ago, I was trying to find a better next step up. I never thought that Philadelphia would end up being better than us. We pride ourselves on being a world class destination with the best nightlife, museums and food, and we are so clinging to the exploitation of horse drawn carriages. This is not a matter of commerce. It is a matter of biology. A giant prey animal is not built to thrive in New York's overstimulating concrete environment. Veterinary experts, many of which we have seen here today, have consistently found that pulling heavy carriages on unforgiving concrete leads to arthritis, hoof and chronic pain, and these animals are biologically in prison. They are kept in cramped stables where restricted movement causes colic, a painful, often fatal condition. While we are forcing them into a lifestyle that causes them internal agony.

We are gathered here today after the tragic death of a human about to embark on adulthood. Romance — my heart goes out to his family and loved ones for their devastating loss. But we should not have had to wait for human tragedy to act. This has been a systemic failure for over a decade. We have seen evidence on our streets for years, from Tickles back in 2015, who was euthanized after a fracture because he was no longer a profitable product, and the more recent collapse of Ryder, who this Bill was prior named after, and even regarding Dennis Hoover, who died in the park. The industry points to toxic plants as the cause, but the fact remains that these animals are being forced into urban environments where they are exposed to such dangers while working for this industry. The current system is clearly broken, marked by an annual turnover rate of over 70 horses with zero transparency regarding where these animals are sent once they are removed from City rolls. The union argues that we

(07:30:29)

cannot... I need you to wrap up, of course.

(07:30:32)

But a network... but Annette, we all know, as we have seen today, the network of over four dozen sanctuaries have written a letter of intent to take them. Cities across the globe, from Philadelphia, Chicago and Salt Lake City to London, Beijing, Barcelona and Montreal, have all put this terrible practice behind them. So my last words to you are: thank you so much for your time, and let us make history and keep New York being the future and the best city in the world.

(07:31:02)

Okay, thank you. Next.

(07:31:08)

Hello, my name is Lisa Goldberg. I am a New York City resident and an animal advocate, speaking in favor of Int 0943-2026. The Central Park horses are denied the freedom to graze, roam and form the deep bonds with one another that are natural to these highly social herd animals. More than that, we have witnessed too many of them collapse and die on New York City streets, most recently Denise, Lady and Ryder, but many others over the years. You do not have to be moved by the plight of the horses, though, to recognize how incredibly dangerous it is to have horse drawn carriages in

(07:31:44)

New York City. Horses are prey animals whose hardwired instinct is to spook and run when they perceive a threat, a loud noise or a sudden movement — things that are everyday, unavoidable occurrences in New York City. We have seen so much video footage documenting harrowing near misses where horses have spooked and bolted, and passersby have narrowly escaped being trampled. Now 18-year-old Romance Mahajan has tragically been killed in a preventable incident that should never have been allowed to happen. I hope the City Council will respond to the Mahajan family's tragedy by passing Romance's Law immediately, because if horses continue to pull carriages in New York City, it is only a matter of time before the next inevitable tragedy. Thank you.

(07:32:34)

Thank you very much. My name is Margaret Lee, New Yorker and animal defender. My thanks to Speaker

(07:32:45)

Menin, Bill sponsor CM Marte and co-sponsors of Int 0943-2026, and all who made this hearing possible. We have waited decades for this moment. Immense and devastating heartbreak has finally brought us to this hearing on National Celebration of the Horse Day.

I am here in support of Int 0943-2026, Romance's Law, named for 18-year-old Romance Mahajan, who died while riding in a Central Park horse drawn carriage with his family. I am also here as one of the great majority of New Yorkers who have been long pleading for an end to this dangerous and cruel industry. Many of us even voted based on promises to ban horse carriages, only to be disappointed time and time again. The truth is simple. Horses do not belong on New York City's streets. No amount of legislation, regulation, training or infrastructure changes can make horse carriages safe or ethical. The tragedies that preceded Romance were foreseeable, and until this industry ends, more tragedies will inevitably follow.

Four years ago, Ryder's Law, for the exploited horse who collapsed while pulling a carriage, never even received the hearing it deserved, despite the support of most New Yorkers. It was repeatedly blocked while activists like myself spent years urging this City to choose compassion over tradition and profit. Today you have the opportunity to do what should have been done long ago. Pass Int 0943-2026 and move it urgently and speedily forward now, before another horse or another person risks being harmed. Let New York finally become the compassionate, forward thinking city it aspires to be. Release these long suffering horses to caring sanctuaries waiting for them, where they can run freely, and show the world that compassion has finally prevailed. Thank you very much.

(07:35:09)

I want to thank this panel, appreciate it. Okay, right. Next panel: Lisa Ready, Steve Batista, Schuyler Hoffman, Ellen Reddick Sunstein, Holly Vote — sorry — and Ed Schultz. Okay, I am starting with you. Make sure your mic is on. No, you have to push the button.

(07:35:59)

And identify yourself and then testify. I am Schuyler Hoffman. Okay. And I want to be respectful of your time, so I am going to try to actually finish early as a sign of respect.

Let us start off with poison shrubbery. Poison shrubbery — it is kind of ridiculous, right? Like the audacity and greed of this horse carriage industry to expect that Central Park change everything to accommodate their needs. Kind of seems a little funny to me, and I really think that this is greed. I mean, I am an organizer and I am very interested in unions and labor. So when I see this sort of union that they have, but it is all managers and it is mainly representing their own greed, I think to myself: this is ridiculous. Who are we actually saving? People that want to force other beings to suffer to make them money. Let us get rid of this industry. Thank you.

(07:37:05)

Thank you. Next.

(07:37:10)

Good afternoon. My name is Steve Batista. I have been a dog walker on the west side of Manhattan for 26 years. So the congested, gridlocked avenue paths the carriage industry takes to and from Central Park coincide with my own work territory. I have seen it all. I have seen horses electrocuted. I have seen horses clipped and injured by vehicles. I have seen horses jump curbs and bolt on sidewalks. I have seen horses frantically pulling empty carriages, lost by their drivers. I have seen terrified animals inhaling gross exhaust fumes and suffering in extreme weather conditions, suffering year after year in bondage.

In 2025, a horse named Lady collapsed and died on 53rd Street in Hell's Kitchen. Her driver admitted to my face that the horse was forced to work with cancer. I have seen enough. We all have. The two of you and whatever shameless shills remain on the City Council are insulting New Yorkers when they falsely claim that any animal welfare reforms are applicable in this situation. The only answer to this ugly relic of history is a full ban. Mahatma Gandhi famously said that the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. As I stand here today with my fellow citizens of conscience, I ask you to realize the greatness of this City and its movement towards progress by supporting the passage of Int 0943-2026. Thank you for your time.

(07:39:00)

Hi, my name is Ed Schultz. I am a New York City public school teacher. I am a proud union member, an immigrant and a grateful constituent of CM Shahana Hanif. Thank you all for being here, by the way, so late.

I come today to urge you to pass Romance's Law. The carriage horse industry has always claimed that their horses are retired to sanctuary when they can no longer pull. This is despite the fact that a former New York City carriage horse named Bernard was rescued from a notorious kill buyer auction in Pennsylvania in 2024, as reported on by the New York Post. I find it telling that today the carriage industry has repeatedly threatened that they will sell their horses to slaughter if this Bill passes. One would expect that every carriage horse should have a retirement plan from the very first day they are connected to a carriage. That is the industry's responsibility, and if they do not, they are literally one serious injury away from being sold to a kill buyer, which they have acknowledged today.

I teach majority rule. A vote for Romance's Law is not just a vote to protect horses and public safety. It is a vote for democracy, as an overwhelming majority of New York City residents want this Bill to be law. Thank you for your time.

(07:40:13)

Thank you very much. Next.

(07:40:19)

Hi, my name is Ellen Sunstein. I am a former equestrian turned horse advocate. Thank you for the opportunity to testify in strong support of Romance's Law. When I was a child I rode a horse drawn carriage through Central Park. I offered a carrot to the weary horse, and he took it from my hand. I did not realize at the time that that gentle horse was forced to pound the pavement day after day, even when it was swelteringly hot or blisteringly cold. At night he would go back to a tiny stall, likely lying exhausted. I have known many horses in the years since, but I never forgot the feeling of that horse's breath in the palm of my hand. I have often wondered what became of him. Did he drop dead in the street like Lady and Denise? Was he whipped like Ryder, or kicked while screaming like Qiana? Did he die after being forced to haul tourists in a heat wave like Billy? Did he spend his last moments alone and terrified in a 60 square foot stall? Such extreme confinement is harrowing for a horse whose most fundamental needs include social contact, free movement and access to forage. When deprived of these needs, they can develop colic, ulcers or

(07:41:27)

musculoskeletal issues. They sway endlessly or exhibit other repetitive stress induced behaviors, as I have seen myself. Some become shutdown and unresponsive in a state similar to depression in humans. Intensive confinement is not horsemanship.

I love New York as a child and I still do, but the carriage trade is a stain on the City. No one can save Lady, Denise, Ryder or Billy. No one can save Romance, though you can honor him. I cannot save the gentle, exhausted horse I met all those years ago, whose name I forget but whose suffering I cannot forget. But you can save the next horse. Please pass Romance's Law. Thank you very much. I want to thank this panel, really appreciate it.

(07:42:30)

Okay, the next panel is Josh Schinkel, Benjamin Larkin, Rosemary Espino, Elizabeth Pharaoh and Nicole Regard. You begin.

(07:43:08)

Good evening. My name is Benjamin Konigsberg. I am a native New Yorker and I support Int 0943-2026, prohibiting our City's horse drawn carriage industry. This is not about tradition or tourism. It is about the horses. Every carriage horse exists because humans intentionally bred them into a life of servitude. They did not choose this work. We chose it for them.

(07:43:31)

Sorry. Sorry, Benjamin, I said Benjamin.

(07:43:34)

Lakin, that is you. Oh, I thought you said another name. Okay, sorry. Go ahead.

(07:43:41)

Horses evolved to roam freely and live in family groups. Instead, carriage horses spend much of their lives confined to stalls as small as 60 square feet. Research has shown that prolonged stall confinement is associated with chronic stress, gastric ulcers and other serious physical and psychological welfare problems. They walk on hard concrete and asphalt, breathe exhaust, and navigate loud noise and dense crowds, despite their natural instinct to flee perceived danger at a moment's notice. To control them, they wear bits in their mouths, and veterinary research has documented that these bits can cause pain and injuries to the sensitive tissues of their mouth.

We all remember Ryder, whose collapse shocked New York and raised questions about industry oversight, including allegations that records regarding his age had been falsified. And of course, Romance, whose tragedy reminds us that this industry is not only dangerous for the horses, but for New Yorkers as well. So the question before us is not whether carriage horses are treated better than others. The question is: why do we continue exploiting sentient beings for entertainment when humane alternatives already exist? All of this harm stems from one fundamental belief — that horses exist for us to use. They do not. Horses, like all animals, exist for their own purpose. They value their own lives independent of what they can provide to humans. They are not property. The measure of a city is not how it entertains its tourists, but how it treats the most vulnerable beings in its care. Please vote yes on Int 0943-2026. Thank you.

(07:45:25)

Good afternoon. My name is Rosemary Espino. Honorable Council members, a government that fails to protect its most vulnerable is not an effective government, and that includes horses who are made to work in inhumane and deplorable conditions in the streets of New York City. Animals need our protection. These horses suffer pain and depression from the atrocious conditions and hard labor they are made to endure. New York City should not be participating in this cruel and depraved industry. A human life was lost, but so have many horses lost their lives too, in a cruel and senseless activity. To those Council members who voted in the past to keep horse carriages: you bear some responsibility for the death of Romance, because you failed to dismantle this industry when you had the power to do so. To Council members today, I plead with you not to make the same mistakes that other Council members made in the past. Please help put an end to this long and painful chapter for New York City and pass Int 0943-2026. Thank you.

(07:46:53)

Hi, I am Nicole Regard. It is an honor to be here on behalf of Friends of Animals. We need to prevent this industry from claiming any more lives and we are due to pass Int 0943-2026 quickly. But we realize you cannot legislate that the owners will willingly relinquish their horses. So we would also support adding language that creates a fund to enable the City to facilitate a buyout of the horses from the owners who want to sell, and help with placement fees at the sanctuaries who need them, which of course Friends of Animals would contribute to, and we know other groups would as well. We can even accommodate five or six of the carriage horses at our own sanctuary.

Because of Int 0943-2026, the industry is trying to get a leg up — pun intended. It has pivoted from talking only about so-called safety measures like posts, to spinning a narrative that all the horses are going to slaughter if this Bill becomes law. But how come when they retire their own horses now from service, that is not a death sentence? How can both things be true?

(07:47:58)

Being deadly is not the only reason the trade needs to be banned. It also robs them of their basic needs. People have talked about turnout for roaming free and socialization, but there is actual research that shows these things lower stress related behaviors. Not only does the carriage horse industry take away the very things these animals need, but then they have to pull carriages along with unsuspecting tourists into the unpredictable New York City environment. As an equestrian of 42 years, I know firsthand that even in the safest environments, horses still freeze, bolt or react defensively to sudden changes. The industry made drivers undergo safety training after the recent tragedy. They wanted the public and tourists to feel safer, but they are not, and neither are the horses.

(07:48:54)

Thank you all for your testimony. The next panel is Kiki..., Marilyn..., Kathleen..., Nicolette Hoffman, Fiorella..., Delmar Leon, Diane..., Ellie... and Ali.

(07:49:42)

Thank you. Please begin when you are ready. Just identify yourself for the record.

(07:49:45)

My name is Maryland Golf. I am here in support of Int 0943-2026 regarding shelter animals and the carriage horse industry. The tragic loss of Roman is a devastating reminder that the carriage horse industry is not only inhumane but is inherently dangerous to the public. The City can no longer look away as horses collapse and die in our streets, traumatizing and horrifying the public, as spooked horses run wild and drivers continue to violate laws, including operating in brutal weather conditions.

My attempts to get help to remove a carriage from the streets during a blizzard were met with total inaction, leaving me feeling completely helpless as I could not protect this horse. There were eight reported horse-related incidents in 13 months, and a recent poll shows the majority of New Yorkers support a ban. Allowing this cruel industry to continue is playing Russian roulette with the lives of New Yorkers, tourists, carriage drivers and would be negligent, especially in today's chaotic, unsafe environment.

We are way past the time for band-aids. No amount of regulation can make this so-called iconic practice acceptable anymore. Traditions should no longer be an excuse for an outdated, inhumane industry. It is banned in so many places across the world and it is long overdue in New York City. These horses deserve retirement and a peaceful life flourishing in sanctuaries, not another day in traffic, living a miserable life they are forced into. Furthermore, this Bill provides a structured transition for workers, setting a modern standard for navigating change and supporting the livelihoods of the drivers. Not every industry gets that help. Now, while the carriage horse trade is in plain sight, I cannot ignore the fact that we have a hidden

(07:51:44)

tragedy. It is the adoptable, treatable animals being needlessly killed in City shelters, which is long overdue and needs to be addressed. Thank you. I just want to finish by saying that shelter animals have no rights and they receive a lack of humane treatment. What is happening now is neither acceptable nor a solution. I just ask that it is 2026. We passed the Manchester Law and should show our compassion and end this industry, but also realize that all life is sacred. Everything possible must be done by this city government to protect it, including our shelter animals.

(07:52:30)

Thank you. My name is Kathleen Rub. Members of the Council, thank you for the opportunity to speak today on behalf of SPCA International about an issue that directly impacts animal welfare and the safety of all people in our City. We are here today because it is time that New York City move beyond horse-drawn carriages. This is an outdated practice that puts both horses and people at risk. Our cities are busier than ever, filled with traffic, construction, noise and countless hazards that were never designed for large animals. Yet horses are still expected to navigate these conditions every day.

Recent tragedies have underscored these concerns. Within a matter of weeks, another carriage horse collapsed and died, and a man lost his life in an incident involving a horse-drawn carriage. These heartbreaking events remind us that the status quo is not without consequences. Cities are beginning to recognize that there is a better way. Just last month, Philadelphia voted to end horse-drawn carriage rides, demonstrating that communities can preserve their history while embracing safer and more humane alternatives.

New York has long been a leader in advancing animal welfare. We have the opportunity to once again lead with compassion by ending an outdated practice that no longer reflects the values of our City. We urge the Council to support Roman's Law, which phases out horse-drawn carriages and prioritizes the safety and well-being of both New Yorkers and the horses who deserve a safer life. Let us be on the right side of history for our communities and for

(07:54:00)

Thank you. My name is Diane Petrocelli. I have worked in animal adoption for many years and for years I have signed petitions and written letters, hoping someone would finally end the suffering of New York City's carriage horses. But after witnessing tragedy after tragedy, I realized these horses need more than our sympathy. They need our voices.

Imagine spending every day surrounded by blaring horns, sirens, traffic, exhaust fumes, scorching heat, freezing temperatures and miles of unforgiving pavement. Imagine never having a choice, never being able to say I am tired, I am hurt, I am afraid. That is the life of a New York City carriage horse. These beautiful animals were never meant to spend their lives pulling tourists through the busiest city in the world. Horses are meant to run through open fields, graze beside other horses and simply be horses. Instead, they spend their entire lives walking on pavement surrounded by noise and traffic, living a life they never chose nor would ever choose.

Horse-drawn carriages belong to another century. They were created before automobiles existed. New York has always been a city that embraces progress. Today you have the opportunity to let our compassion evolve as well. This is not only about animal welfare. It is also about public safety. Recent tragedies have reminded us of the risk to both horses and people. We should not have to wait for another tragedy before deciding that this outdated practice has to come to an end.

If this were your horse, your dog or the pet you love the most, would you want this life for them? Would you want them breathing exhaust, surrounded by blaring sirens and traffic, walking mile after mile on hard pavement in the heat of summer and the cold of winter? These horses have spent their lives serving us. They never chose this life. They cannot stand before you today and ask for a different one. Only you can give them that. I respectfully ask that you vote yes on this legislation and help give these horses the future they have always deserved. Years from now, people will not ask why New York City ended horse-drawn carriages. They will ask why it took so long. Thank you.

(07:56:18)

Thank you, Chairman and Council Members, for prioritizing this matter. My name is Del Mar Leon, founder of Canine Rescue. I believe that the compounded number of accidents that have occurred on an ongoing basis only points to an industry that has been overlooked with little oversight while consistently showing neglect, based on the number of accidents we have seen for decades, which culminated in the tragedy that called for its suspension after the death of Roman. A precedent needs to be set. With the death of Roman, I would like to take this opportunity to offer my condolences to his family.

This Bill is not about removing the passion for horses, as was heard in one of our panelists' testimony, but about removing them from riding on the streets of New York City and Central Park. We also heard earlier from their main veterinarian that there is no standard policy in place to ensure the animals' well-being is being maintained. Assessment of the horse's health is left to be determined by the horse's rider or owner, and the horse's owner or rider also decides when to call the vet. How are we ensuring the driver looking after the horse that day will be looking out for the animal's well-being if it means lost income for that day or week?

We also heard earlier how Council Members have yet to be called back to schedule a meeting, and only did so after weeks, which allows time to correct or cover up any deficiencies. Carriage drivers mention horses are creatures of habit, yet there is a pattern of accidents showing that in 30 years horses have yet to get used and accustomed to riding on the streets of New York City and Central Park. In 1982, three horses collapsed and died on the streets, including one in November 1986. A horse took off and crashed into a building in May 1988. A horse fell into a manhole in May 1990. A horse was fatally pinned between a bus and a car in January 2006. A five-year-old horse spooked, bolted into traffic and wrapped itself over the top of a station wagon. The horse broke its leg and died, becoming a major catalyst for an organized campaign to ban New York City carriage horses. In 2014, Spartak, a carriage horse, was pinned to the ground by an overturned carriage after being spooked by a bus. Two years later in January 2016, another horse spooked. I would like to conclude: it is time to ban carriage horses from the streets of New York City and Central Park. This incident only demonstrates an industry that has been overlooked, showing a pattern that has been ignored. Thank you.

(07:58:31)

I need to conclude. Your time is up. Thank you so

(07:58:34)

much. Please finalize this last point. Go ahead. I would like to conclude by stating that I am in favor of Roman's Law, Int 0943-2026, bringing attention to a similar matter happening within the animal shelters, also left with no oversight and accountability, leaving animals confined and highly medicated to ensure they can cope with inhumane shelter environments. Thank you.

(07:58:54)

Thank you. You can submit the rest in writing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for your testimony.

(07:59:02)

Next. My name is Sara Olivia. I am a resident of District Five. Please talk closer to the microphone. My name is Sara Olivia. I live in District Five, a few blocks from Central Park. I see this every day.

(07:59:23)

I would like to thank everyone who came here today, including all Council Members supporting Roman's Law, Int 0943-2026, and especially Speaker Julie Menin for her leadership. As someone who has already lost a loved one in a tragedy, I know what Roman's family is going through. They will have to go through this pain for the rest of their lives. And when his little brother grows up, he will be in profound pain. This issue is far from ill-conceived and silly, as was suggested by Council Member James. What a shame.

I have a question for all the Council Members who have not supported Roman's Law: do you really have the luxury to allow this to continue? We can all see why carriage horses do not belong in densely populated city settings like Central Park. We all know how heavily trafficked New York is. The carriage industry is a nineteenth-century industry trying to fit into the twenty-first century. No occupation should take over a human life. The City of New York deserves transformative change on this urgent matter. The truth is there is no regulation that can prevent this from happening again. If we do not address this, many more will share Roman's and his family's destiny. Thank you so much. Thank you to this panel.

(08:02:15)

The next panel is John Rosen, Rose Greensari... Lauren Koenig, Israeli Mehlman, Yalda Mosley, Roxane Delgado, and Nellie McKay. Okay, Justina Adorno, Joann Salako. Okay, great. This is Whole Valentin. Okay. Joann Salako, Justina Adorno, Yalda Mosley. Okay. Donna Stein and Lorraine Fleischman. Lorraine is not here. Donna is here. Okay. All right, so we will start with you. Just state your name for the record and then we will give you your time. Thank you.

(08:04:19)

Good evening. Well, I have been here since the morning. Thank you, Council. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Yalda Mosley and I am an animal advocate based in Manhattan. I am just here as a human being and a resident. I work in tech and I am also an actor, and I am very much involved in New York City activities. One of my favorite things to do — I live in the West Village — is to visit Central Park on a monthly basis because it is just a nice escape to get some greenery. But every time I enter Central Park, I see the horses and they look depressed. We see it and it is so blatant every single time we enter the park. The horses are malnourished. You can see the bony ribs. It is very disturbing, and I think, how is this still happening in New York? What is the need for horse carriages? We have modern alternatives — pedicabs, eco-friendly transit — we can walk. These do not require living animals to labor in traffic.

Under New York law, animal cruelty is defined as an act, omission or neglect whereby unjustifiable physical pain or suffering is caused or permitted. No carriage ride is worth a horse's suffering. These are not isolated incidents. There have been eight documented horse-related incidents in Central Park in the 13 months leading up to Roman's death. Eight incidents in one of the most visited public spaces in the world. That is not a safety record. That is a pattern. It was mentioned earlier that veterinarians described horses' basic needs — they are social creatures, they need to forage. I am in favor of this law and I appreciate you taking this into consideration. Horses cannot speak, so we are the voice for them. Let us ban this animal cruelty. I also just want to say that LinkedIn has an excellent coaching program to support the transferable skills that these carriage drivers have. Thank you.

(08:06:50)

Thank you. Good evening. My name is Roxanne Delgado. I reside in the Bronx. I am Latina. My parents are immigrants. I am here because I support this Bill. I just left work. I work a very physical job and my back is killing me and I feel tired. But after this I am going to go and take some medication, and if I do not feel better I will call out tomorrow. But the horses do not have that luxury. They are worked to death. I have seen firsthand how these horses are doubled over, shifting their weight, left in the sun despite the fact that the drivers take refuge from the heat. During those seasons they are worked to death. They work around the clock with no rest. There is no enforcement of the minimal humane laws.

I was here almost 15 years ago with the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages on Int 0089-2026, and things have not improved for the horses. It has gotten worse. Issues we came to address, like global warming, have only intensified. I would like to mention that the drivers have unions, and those unions have many jobs listed on their websites. They could help employ many of the workers. But what is being done to these horses is not right. The City Council and the City have been at the forefront of many issues that other cities follow. Horse-drawn carriages have been banned in many cities across the country. That is why we are here — because it is abusive. Yes, of course we want people to be employed, but jobs are not an excuse for animal abuse. We are better than that.

I voted for term limits because of CM Gennaro and he has not evolved. He is still with that same nonsense. After 15 years he is still backing them. I am telling you, we as humans have to evolve every day and I am so disappointed in his behavior. I would like to thank you for your time and hopefully the City does the right thing. I want to tell you that for the record, all of us that are here now are on the record in support of this Bill.

(08:08:53)

Well, thank you for doing the right thing and thank you for having the courage to speak for those who do not have a voice. In the most marginalized communities, like myself, we need people to advocate for us, and so do those horses. That is why I am here, because they are marginalized like me. Have a great evening. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Next.

(08:09:11)

Is your mic on? I am sorry. You have to push the

(08:09:15)

button. Thank you. Okay, now my time starts. My name is Donna. I am speaking for myself and for lifelong New Yorkers and lifelong horse lovers. Twenty years ago, Newsweek wrote that New York has the highest carriage horse accident rate in the country. The industry called for hitching posts and driver training. Newsweek feared only a human death could end it. Now the eyes of the world are on us. Safe, humane horse-drawn carriages are not possible in New York because of the nature of the City — dangerous urban traffic, crowded parks. All horses spook. They are prey animals, wary of danger. They bolt and run for their lives. There have been 128 accidents since 1982 and 29 work-related horse deaths. Now Roman, plus lives shortened by overworking and slaughter, with no turnout to pasture, which working horses require for their health and well-being — to be horses with other horses. Climate extremes at busy seasons are when they collapse and die in our streets. Summer heat is hotter on asphalt. Humidity is harder on horses than the cold of the punishing winter holiday season. Concussive leg and hoof injuries from pounding pavement, along with respiratory harm from exhaust, can end their working lives and lead to slaughter. Inadequate housing, even upstairs...

(08:10:43)

Stalls too small, part A. Horses at the end — brutal slaughter. The history wants hitching posts in Central Park, but this invites disaster. Push horses can spook tied to a post, sorry, at their necks, rearing, collapsing backward, runways, dragging the post — injuries and death. Hitching posts do not make it safe for drivers to leave their horses. By law and good horse sense, horses must be attended at all times at the horse's head, including at a hitching post where the public can stress the horse. Negligence caused the death of Romance and many horses. It is human to think "I will only be a moment, what could happen?" But in that moment, of course, the unthinkable occurred. More driver training a few years ago did nothing. It is no surprise to me that everyone who is against this law had a profit motive.

(08:11:44)

Thank you very much. Next, Nelly. Right. Okay. Thank you.

(08:11:47)

You good? Yes, thank you.

(08:11:49)

Please state your name for the record. Sorry. Oh, thank you.

(08:11:52)

My name is Nellie McKay and I have been going to protests against the carriage horses since I was a little girl, so it has been a very long time. I am here in support of Int 0943-2026. As you have heard from so many people, these horses work in the sweltering heat and the freezing cold. They are easily spooked. They work next to loud, unpredictable vehicles and machinery. This exploitative and dangerous industry has gone on long enough, so please retire the horses to caring sanctuaries. Thank you. Thank you so much.

(08:12:31)

Thank you to this panel. Really appreciate you staying. Appreciate your testimony. It is very important to us, so thank you. Let us not gloss over. Okay. Karen Kapnick? Yes. No. For Farah — Farah is the last name on this list. F-I-R-A-T. No. Christopher Leon Johnson and Raul Rivera. We ready?

(08:13:29)

Yeah. Hello. My name is Christopher Leon Johnson. I support Int 0943-2026. I want to say this right now — there is a special place in hell for Jim Gennaro because he is one of the biggest adversaries when it comes to this Bill and many others. I know I cannot try to be under the corner. I say this right now — look, let us keep it one hundred percent — this Bill is going to target two properties: the 52nd Street location and the 30th Street location. Now I understand that a lot of people say it is not a land grab. It is a land grab, but it is a great land grab, because if that means that this type of land grab will save lives, I am for it one hundred percent.

I say this right now — that is a powerful union. They are a corrupt union. I got them this morning. They are a real corrupt union. They have a lot of pressure on the drum. I know a lot of guys they have tried to eliminate, and they go and do whatever they have got to do. They showed this Bill dies in the City Council. I hope that you guys have the courage to fight against them right now. The Borough President lawsuit — let us be clear about that — if she could defeat him, you could defeat James, John Samuelson and John in the City Council. I will say this right now that when it comes to amendments, you have got to make sure that the people that are the horse carriage drivers are protected.

The only reason why John is upset about casinos is because everybody in the industry knows he gambles. He gambles a lot in Atlantic City. It is because of those casinos. He knows they go to become a cleaner or a host at a casino. Why is he not pushing for making people bus drivers and conductors? He does not care, because he knows that once that happens, he is scared of getting voted out of office. So I will say it right now — I support this one hundred percent. Like I said, I know this is targeting the 30th Street location near the Javits Center and the 52nd Street location on the West Side by the West Side Highway. What a great land grab. I support this Bill. Thank you.

(08:15:34)

Thank you. Thank you. Raul, good evening, Chair and...

(08:15:38)

Members of the Committee. My name is Rory Vera. I am a native New Yorker. I have been advocating in this City for almost nine years, fighting for the drivers. If this Council could not help the New York City drivers, how do you expect to help horses? How do you expect to make things safe when you could not help the drivers? Let us call this what it is. Int 0943-2026 is a land grab by the real estate companies — a land grab by the developers — and both Council members, Speaker Julie Menin and the Mayor know it is a land grab. They know this has nothing to do with safety. Speaker Menin's husband is a real estate developer. That is why this land grab is happening. And when advocates like myself speak up, the Committee is quick to cut off my testimony.

What you are doing is weaponizing public safety. This has nothing to do with safety. This is about real estate. The most profitable business in New York City is real estate. This is not about horses. It is about the stables. You are taking the homes away from the horses. You are gentrifying New York City, even for the horses. Case in point — the Vessel at the Hudson Yards: several suicides there, no outrage from this Council, no hearings on safety at Hudson Yards. You are against working people. You are ignoring real safety failures in your pet projects.

Let us be honest about Speaker Menin's record. She has never supported the drivers. We asked for help. We asked for a meeting. We even got an email from her office that said "not interested in meeting with the drivers." And where was this Council for Priscilla's Law? Priscilla Loki was killed by an e-bike. Her family begged for Priscilla's Law. No one at City Council cared enough. All right, I will submit the rest of my testimony. You can summarize if you want. Okay, it is a little longer. But I do want to say that Kurtis Lee sold out New York, and he is officially — I anoint him King of the Scumbags. Okay, thank you.

(08:17:58)

Thank you both. Please make sure you submit the testimony. Okay. All right, thank you. Is there anybody here who has not testified and has not filled out a card yet? No. Okay, then what we are going to do is we will now move to virtual testimony. Please wait for your name to be called to testify and please select unmute when prompted. Caitlin Gamble, you may begin.

(08:18:41)

Hello. My name is Caitlin Gamble and I am a resident of the Upper West Side. I used to live near the entrance of 72nd Street and Central Park, where a few horses — maybe three to five — would line up. I would pass them several times a day while walking my dog and it was distressing to see the carriage horses, particularly on hot days. I walked by at least once when a carriage horse was starting out on a ride when the temperature was over 90 degrees. As a New Yorker, I do not want to witness animal cruelty as I just...

(08:19:12)

...try to go about my day.

(08:19:15)

In addition to the current horse carriages being a horror for the animals, it is a quality of life issue for residents who must witness this. Thank you. Thank you very much.

(08:19:27)

Next is... Dubin. Okay. Are you on? Do you want to testify? Okay. All right, let us move on. Clara, you may begin.

(08:20:08)

Hello. My name is Clara. I am a multi-species ethicist with a master's from Harvard University. My work involves addressing the dominance of the anthropocentric world with respect to animals' needs. If these horses were truly cared for and respected, they would not be in this industry. Lack of oversight and transparency for the well-being of horses in the carriage industry is not surprising, but it has been devastating to hear the extent of it in this Council meeting. When we see a horse attached to a carriage collapsing in the street, there are countless...

(08:20:43)

...devastated passersby. New Yorkers stop to try and help the horse. Some are crying, some are filming. And time and again we see the driver looking on with an expression of annoyance rather than concern for the horse. Every passerby is not an animal rights activist, as those who exploit horses suggest, to minimize how many people care. Yes, New Yorkers care and are saddened by the continual display of cruelty — horses being forced to work.

Tourists expect New York City attractions to be safe. Who truly enjoys this? Not the horses, not the residents, not the tourists, not even the drivers. Was this not supposed to be a pleasant experience? The way nostalgia works is that we recall something from a bygone time in our lives, often from childhood. No one alive today remembers the 1800s. What could be fun is real nostalgia. Instead, imagine unique museum-like spaces designed for immersion and photographs, featuring styles of music from different eras of New York City, providing a historical experience that is actually fun and cruelty-free. The horses must finally be free to live at sanctuaries and have a chance to feel relief, no longer forced to work until they collapse and die from pain and exhaustion. I very much look forward to this ban finally being made official. Thank you for your time.

(08:22:06)

Thank you very much. You may begin.

(08:22:15)

Hello. I am Victoria Moran, a New Yorker by choice and an author. I am so grateful to be here and it breaks my heart that I am not there in person — it is doctor's orders. As a young woman in Kansas City in the 1970s, I learned about the work of Gretchen Wyler and Peg Fitzgerald and this movement to get the carriage horses off the streets of New York City, a place that seemed to me like the magical land of Oz. I loved the idea that even then these people were working to be sure that New York was this inspirational, aspirational flagship American city. So I watched through the 80s and the 90s and finally managed to move here to Oz in 2000 and joined the cause myself. I supported candidates who said that they would see that this ended, and they did not.

After the deaths of so many horses, and now with this precious young human being — it is time. It is time. I lost a 16-year-old stepson and I can tell you, you do not want to know what that feels like. This could have been prevented. When I was in my 20s... I am 76 now and I am still waiting. What you do on this — to bring Romance's Law to bear — will not bring back lost lives. But you have in your hands the ability to prevent more carnage. I see there is a clash of cultures. Sometimes there is an argument between loving animals and hating cruelty, and I think we need to bring ourselves to the point where we can do both and make the City indeed livable for all. Thank you so much.

(08:24:14)

Thank you very much. Next is... you may begin. Okay.

(08:24:22)

Hi. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Hi. My name is Inna. I am from Toronto and I am a long-time animal rights activist. I am speaking today on behalf of carriage horses and to give my support to the passing of this Bill and to ban the use of carriage horses in New York City. It is very important that this ban be passed and all these beautiful horses be retired to reputable sanctuaries and other loving forever homes. They all deserve a nice retirement, and that could easily be arranged by the City working together with animal welfare groups for all of them.

For the drivers, the City could purchase electric carriages, which other cities around the world have. They are really popular. They look like a lot of fun. They are also electric, so they would be green as well. Historically, passing this Bill would further the proud history of New York City as a leader in animal welfare. The ASPCA was founded by a New Yorker, Henry Bergh, in the early 1800s, who walked the streets of New York City prosecuting drivers who abused, neglected or forced animals to work. This decision — passing this Bill — would confirm that New York City is not only a great city for people but also a great, progressive one for animals as well.

Finally, as a tourist who has longed to visit New York City — I live in Toronto, so it is not much of a journey — I made a pledge to myself about 15 years ago that I would not visit New York City until the carriage horse industry was banned. So it has been 15 years and I am still waiting. It would be too depressing to go into beautiful Central Park and see these horses that all look sad. They look bored. They look just miserable. And that would ruin my trip. So I said no, I am not going to support a City that supports this kind of animal abuse. Cruelty to animals is long past its time. Please just...

(08:26:33)

Okay. So let us not let the heroism of the tragedy of the young man who died be ignored tonight. Let us not let this Bill be delayed and postponed any further. Let us get this Bill passed and let us ban this cruelty, because it is the right, smart and kind thing to do — for animals, for horses, for New Yorkers, for tourists and for New York City. Thank you. Thank you very much. Sherry Ramsey, you may begin.

(08:27:07)

Sherry Ramsey, you may begin. Okay. Can you hear me? Oh, good. Thank you. My name is Sherry Ramsey. I am co-chair of the New York City Bar Association Animal Cruelty Committee and we are very happy to be here to speak on this topic and to be in support of Int 0943-2026, relating to prohibiting the operation of horse-drawn cabs. For approximately 20 years or more, the City Bar has urged the Council to enact legislation to not only ameliorate the extremely harsh conditions under which our City's carriage horses are working, but at the same time the City Bar has argued that all of the legislation previously proposed would not create a fully humane condition and that the ban of carriage horse rides was the only humane solution.

Despite broad public vocal support for reforms, including from the ASPCA, no legislation can eliminate some of the conditions which make the City a deadly and inappropriate environment for horses, or eliminate the threats to public safety. As such, the existing rules have hurt the horses and served as a betrayal of the public interest. As indicated by a landmark 2007 audit report by the New York City Comptroller, there has been no adequate protection provision under the current laws, which have turned out to be failures. The audit found that horses were not provided enough drinking water, risked overheating on hot asphalt. It also discovered that the horses lacked proper veterinary care and were forced to live in their own waste due to inadequate drainage. It also cited the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and the New York City Department of Consumer Affairs for legal non-compliance. Moreover, the presence of horses on the City's congested streets has always posed a danger, with unceasing instances of spooked horses bolting, putting both horses and people at risk. And the report on the previous...

(08:29:21)

Time expired. This Bill — we identified... Jim Gennaro, just give a summary, because we have to move on. We have a lot of... Okay. Thanks. So there are lots of — although the Agriculture and Markets Laws have prohibited things that should have been addressed through our laws — they have not been. As a result, horses are getting very little good treatment and are not being turned out appropriately, as is essential for horse care. So in addition to addressing the problems — the things that we think would be helpful in getting rid of the carriages — we need... We need to wrap it up. Just a couple of sentences. Tell us where you are at and we have to move on. So the...

(08:30:00)

Ban would reduce horses' exposure. It would protect the public from risk and it would also be the most meaningful thing we can do for the horses. So we thank you so much and we hope you will support the passage of Int 0943-2026, which we believe is well overdue.

(08:30:15)

Okay. I also want to encourage you — if you have longer testimony, please submit it, because we want to see the whole thing. We also want to thank the Bar Association for being helpful to us in this. Thank you. All right. Next is Pauline Bond Burns.

(08:30:35)

You may begin. Good evening. This is Pauline Burns. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes, very good.

(08:30:55)

I want to thank you for the opportunity to give some testimony. I am President of the New York State Horse Council and would like to address the esteemed members of the New York City Council Health Committee. The New York State Horse Council was founded in 1966 as an umbrella organization for the equine community residing in New York State. Our mission is to create a strong, unified voice for all horse interests toward the preservation of a future for horses in this State. The New York State Horse Council Board of Directors and its membership is composed of a diverse group of industry professionals, making our organization uniquely qualified to assist in all matters pertaining to horses in New York State.

At this time, the New York State Horse Council is abstaining from a direct position on Int 0943-2026, a Bill to amend the Administrative Code of the City of New York prohibiting the operation of horse-drawn cabs. We do recommend consideration of Introduction 987. The New York State Horse Council would like clarification on the intent of language contained in Int 0943-2026 pertaining to the disposition of licensed horses. We agree horses should not be sold for slaughter and it is, in fact, illegal in New York State under Agriculture and Markets Law Section 385. However, we also recognize that the carriage horses in New York City are privately owned and as such their owners are responsible for their humane treatment and disposition. We recognize New York City has evolved since the inception of the carriage industry. Time expired. If...

(08:32:49)

...you could just summarize the remaining points.

(08:32:51)

Because we see this paragraph, we recognize New York City has evolved since the inception of the carriage industry, in that Central Park is now hosting millions of tourists and residents who all have a vision for the use of the park. You are supportive. Enforcement occurred. Regulations pertaining to suspensions and revocations within the New York City carriage industry will improve the safety of the horses, drivers, passengers and general public. We welcome the opportunity for thoughtful discussion so we can work together to find a fair and humane path forward for the City, the residents, the visitors, the carriage industry and the horses. We also recognize that if we have that we cannot... we have to move on. So just take a couple of sentences and

(08:33:37)

we have to move on. This is

(08:33:42)

the end. We also recognize that there is a proposed phase-out period that will require a transition and we would welcome an opportunity. They also have a list of recommendations that are set forth with the testimony. Thank you.

(08:34:02)

Very much. Next is Nora Marino. You begin.

(08:34:14)

I am sorry I could not meet myself in person. Hi. Thank you for staying so late. My name is Nora Marino. I am an attorney. I have done a lot of animal rights litigation over the years and I have two not-for-profit organizations for animals as well: the Adrienne... Legal Action Network for Animals and the Animals Could Expose Fund.

I do not want to repeat what has been going on here today. There has been a lot of great testimony in support of the Bill, which I am in support of. I just want to mention a couple of things really quickly. First of all, some people have referred to the horse-drawn carriage industry as a transportation industry. It is not transportation, it is entertainment. People do not take horse-drawn carriages to get to work. They do not take horse-drawn carriages to meet their friends or go to dinner or go to an appointment or go to a job interview. People take horse-drawn carriages for one reason and one reason only, and it is entertainment. It is not transportation, so that needs to be clear.

Also, no industry has ever received this government hand-holding or coddling that this Bill is offering the members of the horse-drawn carriage industry who will be seeking other employment. Many industries fall by the wayside over the years. I mean, think about typewriter repairmen, print news, the yellow taxi industry. So many industries become obsolete due to progress. This is an industry that actually has the government willing to lend them a hand. I mean, that is extraordinary and very unheard of if you think of the grand scheme of things.

I also just want to mention that the horses bolting, which has been talked about a lot today, so I do not want to get too involved in that, but most of the incidents where a horse has bolted has occurred with the driver in the carriage. It happened to have occurred when the driver was not... the driver was in the carriage and the driver could not control this

(08:36:20)

time expired. You have to summarize. Everybody has two minutes. We have a lot of people that are waiting to

(08:36:27)

testify. Anyway, so I am just saying that in or out of the carriage, the bolting is a risk to the citizens of the City, the visitors to the park and the horses' safety. And I am not going into the peril to the animals, which is number one. At number two, the...

(08:36:41)

You can submit your full testimony online. I absolutely will. Thank you. Please do that. Thank you.

(08:36:51)

Bye.

(08:36:51)

Nina Marie Perino is next. You begin. Nina Marie Perino.

(08:37:09)

Maybe I just got unmuted. Okay. Thank you.

(08:37:13)

I think everything has been covered that I wanted to say. I support the Bill fully. I live in Florida but I am from the island and going into the City it is depressing to see the carriages. I see them here in Florida too. I have been signing and sharing petitions, calling the Council members, calling the mayor. De Blasio promised it. Every mayor that came into office promised to ban horse carriages. We are still waiting. I do not know why it has to exist. It is completely unnecessary. Thank you for saying that they are not used for transportation. It is purely entertainment.

Think about the autonomy that you have that the horses do not. They do not have a choice of what they are doing, when they eat, whether they are cold, whether they want to walk around. Just think about when you are waiting in line somewhere. Imagine that is your whole life and somebody controls when you go to the bathroom. You go to the bathroom right where you are. They are living in a concrete prison. That is their life, carrying people around. Enough. Let us do it. Have a heart. Have compassion. Do not just think about your own needs. We can have fun without harming animals and other people.

I went through the whole testimony. I was with family. I was heartbroken. It was just so unnecessary. We tried to get this passed for so long and knew this would happen. Now it did. I hate that it has to come to a human life being lost. It is sad that people care about all beings. We are the same in all the important ways. We all want to be free from pain. We want to be loved. We want kindness and care and companionship and community and support and freedom. I want to get up when I want to get up. I want to sit down when I

(08:39:09)

want to lay down. I do not want to be told what to do. We are on the same slide. Can you please summarize? That is it. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much.

(08:39:24)

Next is Nathan

(08:39:24)

Simone. You begin. Good evening. My name is Nathan Samil. My wife Meredith and I are District Seven residents in Manhattan. Our representative is Majority Leader Shaun Abreu. When we saw the video that Leader Abreu posted of his goddaughter Jada, asking the Council to ban horse carriages, we were thrilled. I immediately texted him to thank him and he responded right away. He wrote, "My man, took me some time!" That phrase "took me some time" got me thinking. Council Member Abreu is a good man and a wonderful Council member.

I suspect from our conversations over the years that he has never been comfortable with horse carriages. However, the conviction just was not quite there to stick his neck out. I suspect there were maybe members of this committee and Council who have felt the same way. Good people, uncomfortable with horse carriages in a modern urban environment, but for various reasons not quite uncomfortable enough to do something about it, to do the right thing. I responded to the Council member and I said, "That is okay, the arc of progress bends towards justice," and he immediately wrote back, "Yes, sir."

I am not here to litigate the past or ask anyone what took them so long or sit in judgment. I am here to celebrate being on the precipice of justice. But I do so with a message to those members who still find themselves not ready or unwilling. There are now flashing red lights with conspicuous warning signs screaming two things: horses in New York City parks and streets are unpredictable, and horse carriages kill people. Members, "took me some time" will never be an acceptable response or explanation in the future. To those members who for years have been willing to protect the horses, I thank you. To those who it took some time... time expired.

(08:41:38)

Just summarize, okay.

(08:41:39)

I am equally grateful. And one more sentence: to the gentleman who earlier said that advocates are exploiting Roman's death, you do not get to tell people who have warned for years of this tragedy happening that they are exploiting it when it does. Thank you very much.

(08:42:04)

Next, Nancy De Jesus. You begin.

(08:42:17)

Nancy De Jesus, I am here. I was trying to get unmuted. Sorry. Thank you for the opportunity. Okay. My name is Nancy De Jesus. I am a native New Yorker who currently lives in Manhattan and I am here to support Int 0943-2026, Roman's Law.

Tales of old have romanticized the role of horse and carriage in battles, love stories and adventures. While these images are reflected upon with a nostalgic wistfulness, they do not reflect the reality of our present lives. We are in a modern world with different challenges, dangers and an evolved sense and understanding of what keeping people and old creatures safe looks like today. This is evidenced in polls such as one taken just this month by the Central Park Conservancy, which reported that 60% of New Yorkers support a ban on horse carriages.

It is also reflected in the numerous and unavoidable tragedies that have occurred year after year. Horses like Ryder and Denise have lived lives of brutality. Their only rest is to retire to a concrete stall of minimal movement and no respite. Just last month, an 18-year-old in our City, Roman, died during a family vacation on a carriage. I am trying not to cry seeing his mother. When the horse became frightened as a direct result of the dangers and realities of our present time, honking horns, relentless traffic and concrete paths, people will rightfully ask what will happen to the drivers.

The provisions in Int 0943-2026 not only ensure safety for the horses and a transition out of this cruel and outdated practice, but will also utilize and oversee a workforce transition program that will assist these drivers in securing a transition to other employment. Horses will no longer be victimized and used to create a false sense of nostalgia in our City. No more innocent lives will be lost and drivers will not lose their jobs. Please do not let the loss of a young man's life and so many horses be in vain. Those who seek to romanticize this practice can find it in the works of literature from long ago, where it should remain. I implore the members of the City Council to vote in favor of Roman's Law and take direct action to prevent additional suffering and loss of life. Please be compassionate and do the right thing. Thank you very much.

(08:44:27)

All right. Next is Monica Sharma. You begin.

(08:44:35)

Thank you for staying so late. We have been online since 9 a.m. and I appreciate what is going on over here. I just want to say that almost everything has been covered by everybody who has been talking and I am totally in support of this Bill. But I am so amazed, you know, that I understand this was originally for the welfare and the well-being of horses. I am a pet lover myself. I have two rescue dogs. I have had two dogs in the past that we have lost. But I cannot compare the life of my son to the life of my pet, and I loved my pets as much as you can. It has just come down to a human life being in the path of a horse. I do not know how we are comparing the two. It is very unfortunate.

I just hope no mother ever has to think, you know, is my son the same importance as a horse on the street. Horse lives are very important. Dog lives are extremely important. Any pet, any life, extremely important. Everyone has a right to live. But do not bring human life down to thinking it is equivalent to the horses. It is really, really not comparable. It is sad that it happened the way it did happen.

Everyone has a right to earn a living. They have a right to live. They should completely be able to achieve whatever dream they have. It is wrong to say that they cannot adapt to a new lifestyle. Everybody adapts to everything. We have been through three different businesses in a lifetime, three different careers. After my children, I started something else. Before my life, I had something else. Everyone changes, everyone evolves, everyone can continue to grow into something else. If your livelihood is a reason for somebody's death, change it. It is not worth it. We are all going to die one day, but I would be devastated to know that because of me or my profession, someone lost their life. And if you

(08:46:41)

want to just summarize in a couple of sentences, that is fine. I am in support of

(08:46:47)

the Bill. It should definitely be passed. I appreciate all the Council members over here, the Council women and everybody here has been so respectful. But I must say that one Council member was very rude. Okay.

(08:47:04)

I hear you. We have to move on. Thank you. Melissa Bell is next. You begin.

(08:47:17)

Melissa Palace. Okay. Ma'am, can you hear me? Yes. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Good evening, Chair Schulman and Council members of the committee. I am sorry that I could not attend in person. My name is Melissa Palace. I am the founder of One Kind World Foundation and I urge you to pass Int 0943-2026. For much longer, as has been mentioned multiple times today, horses are prey animals. They have survived by perceiving danger and fleeing from it. No regulation or enforcement mechanism can override millions of years of evolution. Their mental rivers are vast landscapes. They forage freely and live within enduring family bands. It is their inalienable right to be born and to live free and we have stolen this right from them. Every human enterprise built upon the use of horses

(08:48:12)

begins with the same assumption that another living being's freedom may be subordinated to our designs. There is a reason the traditional expression is to "break" a horse. Before a horse can serve our purposes, its own will must first be overcome.

(08:48:31)

Throughout this hearing, it was suggested that those of us who defend animals seek to remove them from human lives. That misunderstands our position entirely. We do not seek to remove horses from the human story. We seek to remove oppression from theirs. Let us call this what it is: it is animal exploitation. These are magnificent sentient beings who were not and were never ours to use. Their lives belong to them. It was said today that horse-drawn carriages have been part of New York City since 1858. History is not only a record of traditions we preserve. It is also a record of practices humanity eventually found the courage to abandon. Longevity has never conferred moral legitimacy. Human alternatives exist. Ingenuity and compassion... time expired. You

(08:49:25)

have to summarize because we have got to move

(08:49:27)

on. Thank you. I just wanted to thank you for your time today. Thank you so very much.

(08:49:34)

You are very welcome. Thank you.

(08:49:39)

Next is Jennifer Garrett.

(08:49:40)

You begin. Hi. My name is Jennifer Garrett. It is an honor to speak with you. Thank you for staying so late. I am an attorney, a volunteer for Voters for Animal Rights and I serve on the board of Catskill Animal Sanctuary in Saugerties, New York. I am testifying today in my personal capacity as a New Yorker in strong support of Int 0943-2026, Roman's Law.

I moved to New York 16 years ago and I have been walking past the horses in the park ever since. Without a doubt these horses are neglected and abused and they are forced to work in dangerous conditions. As we have seen, they often disappear or are sold to auction or slaughter. We should all be embarrassed and outraged that with their one life we have treated horses in New York City in this horrendous way for so long.

I have spent my career in law and risk management and I wish to make the point clear that this industry is beyond regulation. This City has issued additional regulations for decades. The safe, responsible and necessary path forward is a wind-down. If anything, the ban needs to happen faster. I wish to thank Speaker Menin and Chair Schulman, Council Member Marte, the Animal Welfare Caucus and every co-sponsor of Int 0943-2026, including my Council member Julie Won, for their leadership and compassion. History will remember this Council for its courage. I truly believe that. You certainly are my heroes already.

As a premier global city, New York City owes it to the millions of people who come from around the world to visit and to our residents, human and animal, to put an end to this cruel, outdated and unsafe industry. Our City is better than this. We have a duty to prevent future tragedies and other cities around the world will look to us to set the example. With the passage of Roman's Law, you will save lives and you will honor them in the strongest way possible. We need to act now. Thank you.

(08:51:47)

Thank you so much. Next is Fiona Walsh. You begin. Fiona Walsh? Next, Faith Rashid. You begin.

(08:52:20)

Good evening. I am speaking for sheep concerns as a private citizen and lifelong New Yorker. It is time to pass Int 0943-2026. I care deeply about this issue because I feel horses should not be used purely for entertainment and profit. Horse carriage rides are a threat to the health and safety of humans and horses. Too many horses have suffered and died in this industry. Unfortunately, 18-year-old Roman, who had his whole life ahead of him, was tragically killed on June 16, 2026. My deepest condolences go to his family.

My background and education in occupational therapy has shown me the benefits of hippotherapy and equine-assisted therapy. Hippotherapy is a medical treatment strategy utilizing the horse's natural rhythmic movement to engage and improve patient sensory, neuromotor and cognitive systems. It is widely used as a modality of treatment for physically and developmentally disabled children. This therapy is also used by veterans who are healing from psychological and emotional trauma.

Carriage horses can successfully transition to hippotherapy or equine-assisted programs. Both therapies require a calm, docile horse with a low flight response. Retired horses are of course evaluated to see if they have the right temperament. They will have the opportunity to be well taken care of and loved. These centers are mostly located at equestrian centers and farm-like facilities, often run by licensed therapists.

My daughter and I have volunteered at different centers here on Long Island, so I have seen the conditions at these facilities. They truly are very wonderful programs. The horse carriage industry is an archaic tradition. Several major U.S. cities have already banned or are actively phasing it out to protect animal welfare and public safety. It is time for New York to pass this law and transition to free electric alternative carriages. Carriage drivers' time has expired.

(08:54:25)

New employment. There was a

(08:54:26)

time and place for the horse carriage rides, and that was in the past. So please pass this legislation now. Thank you for your time. Thank you.

(08:54:34)

We appreciate your testimony. Thank you. Endo Yuki, you may begin.

(08:54:46)

Endo Yuki? Okay. Emily Harding, you may begin.

(08:55:01)

Can you hear me? Yes. When I was a kid until I was in my mid-20s, I worked at a Clydesdale farm in Massachusetts. These one-ton animals were my best friends. They were sensitive, loving and intelligent. I was so lucky to get a chance to work with them. One of the biggest things we looked forward to every year was driving our horses with the wagon in the town's Fourth of July parade. We would prepare for weeks to desensitize the horses to things like firecrackers. We would play loud music, we showed them balloons, we threw hard candies at their feet — anything we could think of that they might encounter, we showed them so they would not be afraid.

When we prepared for the parade, we would bathe and shine them up until they were glowing. We braided their manes and tails in red, white and blue. We would walk the parade route as proud as could be, with their friends looking their best and behaving admirably. We were a crowd favorite and something people looked forward to seeing every year. I say this to underscore that I have no problem with horses being used to pull wagons, carts or plows, no problem with riding or otherwise working with and using horses. The partnership that develops between a horse and their human is beautiful. I know — I have been a part of it.

I have a problem with the way that carriage horses in the City are treated, the conditions in which they are kept and the environment in which they must work. They are abused, forced to work when they are lame or old, injured or sick. They are kept in tenement buildings with no room to lie down or to rest their weary legs — tenements that we long ago deemed unfit for human life. They are driven through traffic in midtown Manhattan, a place where I, as a person who learned to drive in Boston, am still nervous to drive, in all types of weather, including brutal heat and humidity when we are told by newscasters to avoid going outdoors.

Pounding on the pavement, expected to plod along no matter what, only to return to a hot, dark, airless stall where they cannot lay down and rest. This is antiquated and abusive. Come on,

(08:57:06)

can you please summarize and then give us your name as well.

(08:57:12)

Sure. I just want to also say that I am heartsick for the family. What a living nightmare. My prayers are with them. It is beyond high

(08:57:23)

time that we outlawed the practice of horse carriages in New York City. Please pass this law.

(08:57:29)

All right. And your name for the record, sorry.

(08:57:33)

Emily Harding. H-A-R-D-I-N-G.

(08:57:34)

Thank you so much and thank you for your testimony. Next is Dr. Lauren Lynn Linder, you may begin.

(08:57:48)

Hello? Checking to see if you can hear me or not.

(08:57:51)

Yes, we can. And please keep it to two minutes. We have a lot of people waiting to testify. Thank you.

(08:57:59)

I shall. This is Dr. Lauren Linder. I am in support of the Bill. I am a native New Yorker, grew up riding horses in Central Park from the age of seven at Claremont Stables, and also in Queens. I have been riding and caring for horses all my life. I moved to California to complete my graduate school education, and also because I wanted to start a horse sanctuary based on the love that I developed for horses as a child.

I want to provide two different perspectives. One is that as a sanctuary owner and as an ecologist and animal behaviorist, I know what it takes to provide an ideal life for a horse. I have studied equine behavior and equine ecology for the past 40 years. Horses may be bred to pull carriages, but that does not mean that is what they want to do day after day in an environment that is simply not conducive for horses, despite their ability to adapt reluctantly — or not — with blinders and curb bits and whips. Too many of the things humans ask them to do... If you have the land, however, and the pasture and barn and fencing and all the other appropriate infrastructure, it does not cost more than $6,000 a year for a reliable and reputable sanctuary to provide a home for a horse. My sanctuary is willing to provide homes for several of the horses from the carriage industry, and their former owners are welcome to continue to visit with them should they so desire.

The other perspective I want to offer is that I am not only an animal behaviorist, but I am also a human behaviorist — a licensed clinical psychologist. As a child, I was personally traumatized by seeing the horses in Central Park pulling carriages. I did not understand how they were allowed to be in the sun and the rain on concrete with feed bags. I never saw them getting water, and I was in Central Park several times a week. I asked my parents repeatedly why this was allowed, and I have found since that other children and adults are also distressed. Time expired. This is

(09:00:01)

an important component. Please summarize at the end.

(09:00:05)

Yes. Norms often change once we recognize the cruelties behind them. Let us go ahead and change this one. Thank you.

(09:00:13)

Thank you so much for your testimony. Next is Cynthia Beth First, you may begin. Cynthia Beth First? Next is Cindy Anthony Favia, you may begin.

(09:00:31)

Just one moment.

(09:00:39)

She is sorry, she will be right back. Are you all right?

(09:00:47)

Hold on. Yes. I am sorry. I am just getting my papers here. Sorry. My name is Cindy Anthony Favia. All right, so the reason why I am speaking here is because I have two children that have been involved in the animal rights community since they were 7 and 9 years old. They are now 20 and 22, and they have stood on the line as animal rights activists. When my daughter was a little girl, she saw the carriage horses in Manhattan and she said, "Why are those horses here? Are they not supposed to be where there is grass and green fields and everything like that? Why are they breathing in all that exhaust from buses and everything?" She used to always question it, and then we started standing there and asking why they are still there.

So the reason they stood there for all those years and protested and everything — they have been involved in this for over 10 years. The carriage horse industry has to be out of New York. It needs to end now. It is not a form of transportation. My daughter told me that when she was nine years old — that is not transportation. We have buses, trains, cabs, pedicabs, everything like that, and their own feet. The horses are not here to be used by anybody like that. So that is the reason why I am here today. We do not need any more lost humans or animals. Please, please, from my children's sake, please pass Int 0943-2026. Let the horses live out happy lives now, please. Thank you for your time. Thank you for allowing me to speak, and I appreciate everything.

(09:02:53)

Thank you very much. Car Militari, you may begin. Car Militari? Alison Soul, you may begin.

(09:03:22)

My name is Allison Soul and I live on the Upper West Side. Thank you, Speaker Menin, for your historic leadership in backing this law. Last night you proved this Council will no longer look the other way. For too long the horse carriage industry has scapegoated its tragedies from decades of horse deaths, including Brighter, to the devastating loss of Roman. Unbiased polls have consistently shown 70% of New Yorkers want the exploitation to end. As a daily Central Park dog walker who tries to avoid the West 72nd Street entrance to spare my own heartbreak, I routinely witness the reality. Many drivers sit staring into their phones, ignoring horses that appear malnourished and lame, exhibiting the classic head hang and leg raise of an animal in distress.

With mandated five-week furloughs to the country — but let us be honest about the pipeline — many are originally purchased from Pennsylvania Amish country after years of exhausting farm labor where whipping is well documented. Even if they are allegedly resting during furlough, that environment follows them. One driver admitted to me that his horse returned with a fresh gash on its nose after logging long days on concrete. These horses walk congested City streets back to cramped, poorly ventilated, fire-hazardous stables. Data shows a massive turnover rate. Records compiled by animal welfare groups showed over 500 horses left the registry over an eight-year span.

Horses are routinely dumped back into auctions, facing farm labor or slaughter, with no verification of true retirement. Urban carriage horses are purely a tourist attraction. Time expired. The City

(09:05:26)

must pass Int 0943-2026 and mandate proof of verified retirement.

(09:05:32)

And transition drivers into alternative employment.

(09:05:35)

Thank you. And thank you for your concern. Thank you very much for your testimony. Audrey Gibson is next, you may begin. Hello. Good evening.

(09:05:51)

My name for the record is Audrey Gibson. I am very much in the minority in comparison to those who have testified. I am here to oppose this law. I think what happened to that young man is devastating, but it was an accident. Background-wise, I worked in midtown Manhattan. Prior to that, I lived in Charleston, South Carolina for 20 years, and for approximately four and a half of those years I worked in the carriage industry. It was my job to make sure that the horses got enough rest between tours, were constantly in front of water. I measured their breathing and respirations between tours. I made sure that temperatures were taken between every single tour. If the temperature was too high, we immediately pulled those horses off of tour rotation and cooled them down. We were responsible for veterinary care, farrier care, dental equine care and more. There was absolutely zero percent of the industry that I was involved with that was anything close to animal cruelty, and I find it offensive that so many people have just blatantly accused people in the industry of that. We loved those horses and animals like members of our family. I saw many carriage owners spend thousands of dollars taking care of animals that

(09:07:30)

they knew would never go back on tour, never be back in the industry, to make sure that they were well cared for.

(09:07:38)

There is an unfair standard that is being applied here.

(09:07:45)

Over a hundred people a year are killed crossing the street in the City of New York. There are people that fall from... Can you summarize the rest of what you have to say, and then you can submit the full written testimony to us.

(09:07:59)

I can. If you would be so kind as to give me the address, I would be happy to submit it. It is testimony at council dot...

(09:08:15)

Charleston has over 40,000 tours. We were the most highly regulated industry in the world, and so you can regulate around this. You can regulate for safety and do so successfully.

(09:08:30)

Thank you very much, really appreciate it. So again, it is testimony at council.nyc.gov. Great. Thank you so much, and you have 72 hours from the end of this hearing to do so. Thank you. Imad Shroff is the next person,

(09:08:48)

H-R-O-F-F, you may begin.

(09:08:54)

Hi there. My name is Imad, and I am part of the vast majority of New Yorkers who are sick and tired of witnessing these horses being exploited in our streets. As a proud union member, I also understand how vital it is to ensure that those working in this industry are supported as they transition into other employment once horse carriages are phased out. Currently, there are Council members looking at this. Put your name in support of this Bill and listen to the 70% of New Yorkers that support the end of this industry.

Find the courage to stand up against the Teamsters union and the representatives comparing horse carriage rides to other forms of transit. There is an obvious difference here. A subway conductor or a bus driver who is not feeling well stays home from work until they feel better. A horse cannot. They have no consent in the matter. These horses are forced to work their bodies into the ground whether they like it or not. It is no surprise when you see them collapse and die on our streets. You can say you love horses all you want, but at the end of the day the fact is you are exploiting these animals for profit. New Yorkers go to our City parks to escape the chaos of the big city, to clear our minds, breathe fresh air and surround ourselves in nature, and we are sick and tired of being forced to witness this cruelty in our streets and in our parks. Enough is enough.

And lastly, to CM Gennaro — thank you for perfectly embodying the dying death rattle of this outdated horse carriage industry today. Peace.

(09:10:26)

Thank you very much, really appreciate the testimony. Elaine Curie is next, you may begin.

(09:10:42)

Elaine Curie? Can you hear... We can hear you.

(09:10:54)

No. Now we cannot. Great. Okay, hold on. No, you are good now. You are good.

(09:11:01)

Now she needs to talk. Tell her to stop pressing the mute button. Just press it once. She is good.

(09:11:15)

Okay. All right, now you are good. Do not touch anything. Just do not touch anything.

(09:11:20)

Okay. Thank you very much. What happened in South Carolina has nothing to do with New York City, so all of that is great there but it does not apply here. I would like to make two points that were not made during the expert testimony that you had all day, and I have been here since 10 o'clock in the morning. I was born in New York City. We have property in New York City. Having said that, I am a retired international rider. I have 70 years of high-level horse experience. I have also driven for 20 years, so I have some experience in driving.

One of the points is that one of your Council members had a problem — he was berating one of your committee members about horses having eaten something in New York City. Horses are born with an innate sense of what they can eat and what they cannot eat. I think they can identify like three to five hundred plants that they can eat and what they cannot eat. When a horse eats something that is poisonous, it is because they are hungry and so they will eat what is available. That is number one.

The other point I want to make is that it is not just working these horses in New York City that is bad enough, but these horses — these particular horses — have navicular disease. They are arthritic. They are already used up before they come to New York City, and they are not taken care of by expert horsemen as they would like to pretend. They turn them out in any condition. One of the examples of that is Lady and Brighter. And the last point I wanted to make was that when a horse falls down on the ground... whether the time has expired, you need to summarize because we need to move on. When they fall down on the ground, it is because they absolutely cannot go on. Horses do not like to get down on the ground unless they feel they are safe, and I thank you for listening.

(09:13:40)

Thank you. Next is Marietta Whore, you may begin.

(09:13:55)

Hi, can you hear me? Yes. OK, I cannot get the picture to come and I am not sure why. I will try to talk as fast as I can. A lot of what I am going to say has already been said, so I apologize for that. But I just wanted to say how many horses have died. Denise, in June 2026, he lay on the ground for 10 minutes without medical attention. He struggled in agony when he dropped. People watched it. A carriage writer in 2022, a horse who collapsed and died, likely due to illness and exhaustion, lay on the ground for over an hour without care. His driver slapped him, whipped him and screamed at him. His owner lied about his actions in the City. His owner was charged with overdriving, torturing and injuring animals. Lady, a Standardbred cross, in August 2025 collapsed walking back to the stable after working. She had been working for less than two months, not fit for this job. Overworked. March 2020, 12 years old, had to be euthanized after she collapsed. Mats collapsed in Central Park in 2017. Tickles, an 18-year-old horse, died after a leg fracture in 2015. Billy, in 2022, a 20-something-year-old horse, found dead in his stall after a heatwave. Diamond, colic.

(09:15:01)

Two other horses euthanized.

(09:15:04)

After contracting colic. In June 2022, Freddie, a frightened carriage horse, ran into oncoming traffic the wrong way, eventually crashing. Two cars from the driver made the situation worse by honking their horns. In June 2022, a carriage horse collapsed in Central Park and could not get up for an hour. Onlookers screamed as drivers pulled on her tail and pushed on her neck to get her to stand. In September 2021, a horse pulling a carriage crashed into a car in Manhattan. The horse collapsed and was unconscious for several minutes. In July 2021, an unprovoked, unprovoked attack — a shirtless man punched and kicked a carriage horse in Central Park. In October 2018, a carriage horse collapsed south of Central Park. The driver was reported to have been acting recklessly. In January 2018, a horse-drawn carriage overturned near Central Park, sending the horse and driver both into shock. In May 2017, after being spooked by traffic, a horse crashed into a taxi and was trapped underneath it.

(09:16:01)

Got it. No, no, no, you have got to tell us what you are trying to tell us. Get it summarized to two sentences, two sentences, because I have got to move on.

(09:16:09)

Okay, I am sorry. This is not like a single accident they are describing. This is like a list of 25 instances that happened to horses. A lot of them have died. Also, there are a lot of cities and countries now that are banning these carriages.

(09:16:28)

23 listed. All right. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. We have Daniel Moore. Daniel Moore? Danielle Marie? Danielle Marie? Okay. Michael Phillips, you begin. Michael Phillips. Alyssa Renee Fernandez, you begin. Alyssa Renee Fernandez.

(09:17:32)

Margaret Lee, you begin. Margaret Lee. Okay, I am going to read off these names. I had already presented my testimony. I am just listening. There should be others on Zoom. All right. I was there in person. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.

(09:18:01)

Michelle Muhanna. Susan Pens. Larry Mamiya. Danielle Chin. Sam Moskowitz. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Nico Ramirez. Jonathan Harrison. Katie. Noel Smith. Dan Shoop. Okay, one call. Daniel Chapels again. Daniel Chapels, I am calling again, you begin. Danny M. Okay, let us move on now.

(09:19:03)

What are we up to?

(09:19:04)

Dan Shoop, you begin. Now we are just calling the names. Jeff Soto. Sam Chap. Nick. Patricia Miller. Julia Savio. Delma Du Plantier. Susan Palmer Marshall. Roxane Delgado. Kelly Scott. Christian. Peter Trap. Ayanna. Danny. Is that Danny? Okay. Okay, go ahead.

(09:19:42)

You have two minutes. Testimony... I am from a community that is used to working with horses. My father farmed with horses. They were nearly hit by a truck. We had to move. My kids grew up on the farm and we moved to my hometown. My godmother went to Ghana and traveled by rowboat. My father worked with horses. She was a patient in the ER. In return, my father gave his love and leadership to the community. So we do not have anywhere... we know that horses and carriages go together. I was interested in the carriages in front of the park. We have dogs in the city, on the subway, in the park most of the time. We have to keep the carriages because of the room and the values. The finest have something that even though they could be in the City... the mayor approved a ban. I wish the so-called mayor would consider fair treatment compared to the abuse those programs cause.

(09:21:42)

Time expired. Time is up. Time is up. Can we... time is up. Katie Bordonaro, you begin. Jasmin Mills. No, we are just calling the names.

(09:22:04)

Bill... Maha. Oh, we did that.

(09:22:08)

Oswald. Amy Grillo. Jeanette Cook. No, no, no. Becky Norton. Pamela Perkins. Gina Ranscoff. Urban. Martin. Alex. We did that already. Sarah Miles Lennox. Katie. David. Clare Boston. Matthew Jerusalem. Ben. Jenny Martin. Marisol Brisman. Alison Moss. Lucy. Karen. Alison Taylor. Sophie Higgins. Susan. Dolores. Jeanne Hall. Sarah Brafman. Emily Torres. Sumi. Ellen Holly. Alison Z. Lindemann. Maria. Christine. Christina. Okay. I do call for names. Okay, thank you to everyone who has testified. If there is anyone present in the room or on Zoom... oh, that is Christina.

(09:23:58)

Yeah. Hi. I know it is late. I am in favor of the riders law. I will submit my testimony in writing. Okay.

(09:24:08)

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. If there is anyone who has testified, or if there is anyone present in the room or on Zoom that has not had the opportunity to testify, please raise your hand or use the Zoom raise hand function. Okay. Seeing no one else, I would like to note that written testimony, which will be reviewed and filed by committee staff, may be submitted to the record up to 72 hours after the close of this hearing by emailing it to testimony@council.nyc.gov. I also want to thank CM Marte. I want to thank CM Phil Wong, who came and left and came back. And I want to thank the Council administrative staff: Michelle Otis, Richelle Faria. Committee staff: Christopher Pepe, Elizabeth Thoughts, Josh Newman. It has been a very long day and I want to thank my team: Jonathan Boucher, Kevin McEvoy and Sammy, who went and came back. It was very grueling testimony. We have got a lot done today. I want to thank everyone for all of their patience. I particularly want to thank Speaker Julie Menin for her leadership on this and for helping get us through all of this. And with that I am concluding.